Sons' sorrow

[TheFarPost]

44 minutes ago, albundy said:

Can see it now. First question please..

Punter: Ian, I have concerns about how you will achieve the stadium move without leaving the club shouldered with massive debts.
Ian W: glad you could turn up, were here to reassure you that everything will be fine. I'll pass this one to Roddy.

Cynicism and humour aside (I quite understand that, but these guys are serious and we fans need to be too!), *exactly* the kind of key issue everyone involved needs to be sure about.

As a backdrop, we have it on record, as of two years ago, and in all subsequent discussions I've had since then, that there is no liability for the club involved in this development. So that's a testable commitment. From the look of the plans, whether it can go ahead or not depends almost entirely on whether planning permission for a stadium + domestic development is granted, and upon the willingness of other investors to buy up adjunct parcels of land for housebuilding at a price that will cover the costs of the stadium and provide a return for the owners. In this sense, it's a lot more straightforward than the last proposal. The other issue in terms of sustainability for the club will be about projections for ongoing revenue streams, etc. 

[albundy]

Cynicism and humour aside (I quite understand that, but these guys are serious and we fans need to be too!), *exactly* the kind of key issue everyone involved needs to be sure about.

As a backdrop, we have it on record, as of two years ago, and in all subsequent discussions I've had since then, that there is no liability for the club involved in this development. So that's a testable commitment. From the look of the plans, whether it can go ahead or not depends almost entirely on whether planning permission for a stadium + domestic development is granted, and upon the willingness of other investors to buy up adjunct parcels of land for housebuilding at a price that will cover the costs of the stadium and provide a return for the owners. In this sense, it's a lot more straightforward than the last proposal. The other issue in terms of sustainability for the club will be about projections for ongoing revenue streams, etc. 

That's good to know Simon, I can imagine the only thing that would make the current situation worse is lip service and passing the buck. I would imagine that Ian Wilson is smart enough to know he's got to win over a room of cynics at the AGM, so I expect a full charm offensive.

[optimistic]

Rumours of the club not being able to afford to sack Stevie, but how long do we, the fans have to put up with him and his anti football?, do we demonstrate outside the stadium after another defeat against raith rovers, or organize a chant during the game? Surely the club would always have money set aside for removing a manager when it's not working?. Not so long ago we were the only club in Scotland in the black, whether that is still the case, I don't know, but if so, then can we use it please for his severance payment? Is Stevie just being stubborn in not resigning?, 

Dfc, listen to the fans, sack him or ensure he resigns, there will be no shortage of applications for the job, it may just bring fans back

[George Parr]

Hold the 'fan demonstrations' for the times where you're about to finish bottom of league 2, go out of business etc.

At the moment we're clinging on to 8th in the Championship whilst producing an admittedly crap product. It's not great but it's not yet the end of the world. 

 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Rumours of the club not being able to afford to sack Stevie, but how long do we, the fans have to put up with him and his anti football?, do we demonstrate outside the stadium after another defeat against raith rovers, or organize a chant during the game? Surely the club would always have money set aside for removing a manager when it's not working?. Not so long ago we were the only club in Scotland in the black, whether that is still the case, I don't know, but if so, then can we use it please for his severance payment? Is Stevie just being stubborn in not resigning?, 

Dfc, listen to the fans, sack him or ensure he resigns, there will be no shortage of applications for the job, it may just bring fans back

If I was Stevie I wouldn't resign. If has a signed contract that ensures him a wage til the end of the season, why should he give that up when we're sitting in 8th place and 6 points ahead of St Mirren?

Any sort of protest is silly chat. If the money isn't there to sack him no amount of protesting or chanting will change that. Chanting or protesting should be saved for the stadium shit if and when required not to hound a man out of his job. We're better than that.

I'm not sure the board would sack him even if they did have the money. The signs aint great and the football has been awful but at the end of the day we're currently sitting outside the relegation places.

I'm not Stevie's biggest fan but I think action will only be taken if things become drastically bad and even at that if the money isn't there, the money isn't there and no amount of protesting, chanting or complaining about it will change that.

[The Moonster]

10 minutes ago, optimistic said:

Rumours of the club not being able to afford to sack Stevie, but how long do we, the fans have to put up with him and his anti football?, do we demonstrate outside the stadium after another defeat against raith rovers, or organize a chant during the game? Surely the club would always have money set aside for removing a manager when it's not working?. Not so long ago we were the only club in Scotland in the black, whether that is still the case, I don't know, but if so, then can we use it please for his severance payment? Is Stevie just being stubborn in not resigning?, 

Dfc, listen to the fans, sack him or ensure he resigns, there will be no shortage of applications for the job, it may just bring fans back

We gave Stevie a contract, what exactly do you mean by "Stevie being stubborn in not resigning"? As far as I'm aware no one has asked him to resign, so I'm not sure how he can be stubborn in that respect. Would you resign from your job for the good of the company or would you wait for them to release you from your contract and get what is due to you? I'd be prepared of putting up with his brand of football until the summer at least, where we can reassess our options depending on what division we are in. I'm also not sure how the board would "ensure he resigns" either, I don't think we're allowed to use blackmail.

We can argue over whether the club should be keeping money aside to sack managers, but at the same time if we'd found out that we were holding back a 5 figure sum from the manager this year in case we need to sack him most folk would be calling for that figure to be invested in the team. The board need to be seen to back Stevie, holding back available funds in case we need to sack him doesn't sound like supporting a manager to me.

As for the applications for the job, I wouldn't be so sure that the applying candidate will be of any better standard than Stevie Aitken. When we had the job of appointing the manager last time we were forced into going and finding a manager from another club due to the pool of "meh" which had actually applied for the job. Take a look at Queen of the South potential managers and tell me if you'd take any of them, it's a poor list of the usual suspects. Sure, there will be the unknown ex-players applying for the job but that's a big risk. 

[BallochSonsFan]

Aitken's Dumbarton side play uninspiring football. That said, his job is to secure enough points to stay in this division. As fans we want to be entertained and we'd rather see glorious failure - actually having a go even if it ultimately costs us our position in the division - than meek surrendering. As a manager, Stevie would probably be honest enough to admit that he'd take dull draws and stolen wins if it meant we finished the season in 8th spot. I think we could be more adventurous, particularly given our performances at home this season, but right now the table has us safe so the board will see Stevie Aitken has having met their expectations. Whether we continue to meet those expectations come May 2017 is another matter and it'll undoubtedly be a struggle. Stevie has build a paper thin squad that's deficient in a few areas and yet we're carrying expensive players who have fallen out of favour. Thats down to Aitken and he deserves criticism for our all out collapse on Saturday. When Sparky went off we simply didnt have anybody capable of coming into the middle of the park and giving us that organisation, communication and graft. It's the same for our lack of creativity and our limited options up front. We don't have the option of making wholesale changes and there's little on the bench to turn a game that isnt going our way. Despite those concerns he only needs 2 teams to be worse than us to achieve his target.

 

Aitken's job is to deliver results. If thats at the cost of the quality of performance then sadly he won't care because the club can't afford to care.

[squeezeboxson]

Not sure what the chances would be. But I'd say the fans are long overdue a meet the manager event. I'm sure plenty of folk have questions they would like to ask Stevie. I reckon it would be helpful in allowing Stevie to give some explanation as to what he plans tactically before matches amongst other things.

My feeling is that Stevie wouldn't agree to it because there's a chance he'd get an absolute roasting from some of our fans. But I think it could be an opportunity for the fans and manager to try unite as things are getting difficult.

That all being said, talk of us sacking Stevie makes no difference. I think it is ridiculous to suggest we should have funds aside in case we need to sack a manager. We also shouldn't expect him to walk away from a contract which ensures he has a wage until the end of the season.

[pleslie99]

whether we have funds or not is irrelevant. If the results aren't there then neither should the manager be. Most of us are sick and tired of the same crap week in week out. There is no way we will get a meet the manager at the minute seeing as most of us want him gone. Is there anyone that still has faith in Stevie?

[squeezeboxson]

3 minutes ago, pleslie99 said:

whether we have funds or not is irrelevant. If the results aren't there then neither should the manager be. Most of us are sick and tired of the same crap week in week out. There is no way we will get a meet the manager at the minute seeing as most of us want him gone. Is there anyone that still has faith in Stevie?

I don't want us to sack Stevie. It isn't going well, but we are currently in the position about 99% of our fans had aspired to be in come the end of the season. The same argument could be argued about the results. Yes we are being propped up by a couple of pretty dross sides below us, but again the results have been good enough so far to keep us out of the relegation and play off positions.

I don't argue the fans are turning but don't think most of the fans want him gone. I also don't think it would make much of a difference if we got rid of him, mainly as there are no other candidates out there who I'd want in.

[The Moonster]

13 minutes ago, pleslie99 said:

whether we have funds or not is irrelevant. If the results aren't there then neither should the manager be. Most of us are sick and tired of the same crap week in week out. There is no way we will get a meet the manager at the minute seeing as most of us want him gone. Is there anyone that still has faith in Stevie?

How is "whether we have funds or not" irrelevant to paying off the manager? If we don't have any money, how do you suggest we pay him off?

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

whether we have funds or not is irrelevant. If the results aren't there then neither should the manager be. Most of us are sick and tired of the same crap week in week out. There is no way we will get a meet the manager at the minute seeing as most of us want him gone. Is there anyone that still has faith in Stevie?

Of course it's relevant. How can we pay him out of his contract with no money?

I get the fact we're doing poorly and the football is poor to watch but i can't help but feel this is all getting a bit hysterical. We're in 8th place folks.

[pleslie99]

How is "whether we have funds or not" irrelevant to paying off the manager? If we don't have any money, how do you suggest we pay him off?

Because we are the only club in Scotland that would put up with the recent results and performances, if he was at any other club he would be gone by now, probably long ago!
Yea we're in 8th and that's the goal come the end of the season. However, we are garbage, and we show no sign of improving. St Mirren will invest in January and will likely be confident of finishing 8th or above. Dunfermline we need to hope continue to be shite and we can stay above them, however they seem to have the measure of us and the next 2 games against them will be must wins!
How much are we actually paying Stevie? He's only contracted until the end of the season, that's 7 months away, that's not going to be a huge amount to pay off surely? I mean we want to build a new stadium so we must be minted..........

[The Moonster]

6 minutes ago, pleslie99 said:

Because we are the only club in Scotland that would put up with the recent results and performances, if he was at any other club he would be gone by now, probably long ago!
Yea we're in 8th and that's the goal come the end of the season. However, we are garbage, and we show no sign of improving. St Mirren will invest in January and will likely be confident of finishing 8th or above. Dunfermline we need to hope continue to be shite and we can stay above them, however they seem to have the measure of us and the next 2 games against them will be must wins!
How much are we actually paying Stevie? He's only contracted until the end of the season, that's 7 months away, that's not going to be a huge amount to pay off surely? I mean we want to build a new stadium so we must be minted..........

The amount required to pay him off is irrelevant if WE HAVE NO MONEY. Whether another club would've sacked him by now has no bearing on our current financial state. We can't just magic up a wad of cash.

Stevie was a highly thought of gaffer and we prized him away from a club he was fond of and doing well at. You'd need to be pretty naive to think we're not paying him a decent wedge. 

[Jan Vojáček]

Some interesting views being spotted on here, so I thought I'd chuck my thoughts in.

Talk of fan protests and the like is too far. That's never been the way we've done things at DFC - it's always been howls of derision from the home end as officials head down the tunnel.

At the moment there's a lot of things to look at. The form is rancid. Really, really rancid. In fact it's probably as bad as it's been since the Third Division days. As well as that the 'football' we play is genuinely appalling to watch. This morning alone I've had two emails from people I know who were at the game mentioning how bad it was to watch!

For me going to the game is something I should look forward to, and being there is something (most weeks) I should enjoy. Football should be unpredictable, exciting and I almost always have that wee bit of hope that we could do something.

This season that hope has gone. The unpredictability has gone. The excitement has gone. Every single week pretty much we are served up exactly the same performance. I don't need to go into detail about what it's like because every single person who is watching us semi-regularly knows. I missed an away game for the first time since 2012 and, to be quite honest, I'm struggling for motivation to go to plenty of others.

On top of that we have a manager who seems to have a wee book of excuses and cliches to spout post match. That constant 'look how difficult a job I have' patter is dull now. He knew what he was getting into when he took the job. It's like me getting a job as a roofer and then complaining about the fact I don't like heights or cope well with the cold.

Statistically we have been very, very bad this season. 2 wins in 20 games isn't great by anyone's going, and unfortunately I feel like the victory against St Mirren could actually have set up back. As OKI said earlier on it will be used as the exception that proved the rule.

Our two victories have both been 1-0 and (if I'm being super cynical) have both been fortuitous. The 1-0 victory over United was thanks to a dubious penalty, and Aldo pulling off some heroic saves. The St Mirren one, well that's obvious, 999 times out of a thousand Langfield doesn't do that. Any other team would've comfortably dealt with us.

Then comes the 'he's doing a good job with limited resources' line. He does have the smallest budget in the league - of that I have no doubts - so why he elected to spend (I would imagine) a decent chunk of that on Ryan Stevenson, a player who according to my Ayr supporting m8s was miles off it last season, only he will know. The fact he's then not playing only reinforces that point that he was a bizarre risk of a signing that (unsurprisingly) has backfired.

Last season we had an unbalanced squad. Very little upfront, and an abundance of similar midfielders and defenders. This season we have a smaller squad, but the issues are still the same. If Gaz isn't on form then, normally, we don't win.

In saying absolutely all of that we are actually sat in a relatively decent position in the league. I doubt I'm the only one wondering quite how we have managed that.

We have two fascinating games coming up now. If we don't take three points from Raith then we can chuck the 'decent home record' out the window as far as I'm concerned.

Then we have the Bonnyrigg game. I'm guessing that's absolutely the last draw Stevie would've wanted. It's pretty much a lose/lose for him. If we win comfortably (which I don't expect us to do) then it's what (outsiders) would have suspected. If we get a draw then the pressure will well and truly be on him, and it's an additional game our squad don't need, and if we lose?

Well that would be one of the most embarrassing moments in the club's recent history. Outsiders would see it as a massive shock and giant killing. Would we? Meh, I'm not sure I would.

I think Stevie is absolutely right not to host a 'Meet the Manager' at the moment. It would be a farce and wouldn't help us or him. He'd spout some cliches and feel uncomfortable, we'd get no additional answers. Lose lose as far as I'm concerned.

Stevie still has a high reputation from keeping us up last season, and what he achieved with Stranraer. I suspect he will resign if it looks as if we will go down with a whimper - but that's still a long way off yet. There's no way we can afford to pay him off, and I'm not sure that would achieve anything. His deal is up in the summer and, certainly at the moment no matter what happens this season, I wouldn't be for renewing it. A thanks for your efforts, all the best in the future would suit me.

Every time I think about the managerial situation I think back to BBPF's comments about Murray always looking in control, and Aitken looking tense. He was bang on, and with every passing defeat it becomes more and more apparent. He's never been in this situation as a manager before, it's the sort of thing that makes or breaks managers, and at the moment he's looking broken.

I typed that on my iPad on the train, so there's probably typos all over the shop. Blame Scotrail. That's what I do for everything.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Sonsteam of 08

[sonsanorak]

Interesting to see Aitken being touted for other jobs too; i cant imagine raith, st mirren or the like seeing much to attract them. I think his next club could be full time but lower down the leagues; like an airdrie, dunfermline or livvy. He ll be kicking himself if he knocked back raith in the summer.

[The Moonster]

11 minutes ago, sonsanorak said:

Interesting to see Aitken being touted for other jobs too; i cant imagine raith, st mirren or the like seeing much to attract them. I think his next club could be full time but lower down the leagues; like an airdrie, dunfermline or livvy. He ll be kicking himself if he knocked back raith in the summer.

I think Raith knocked him back rather than the other way around.

Edited November 14, 2016 by The Moonster
Grammar

[Jan Vojáček]

19 minutes ago, sonsanorak said:

Interesting to see Aitken being touted for other jobs too; i cant imagine raith, st mirren or the like seeing much to attract them. I think his next club could be full time but lower down the leagues; like an airdrie, dunfermline or livvy. He ll be kicking himself if he knocked back raith in the summer.

I don't know if this is accurate, but I was fairly sure that Raith didn't offer Stevie the job, rather than the other way around. It was probably spun at the time to look like he had turned it down though.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Sonsteam of 08
Didn't notice that The Moonster had already posted that. Woops.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

There's a fair bit of denial going on here, and clinging to the fact he we are currently ahead of Dunfermline and St Mirren ignores the fact that there is a long, long way for them to make up the gap and then disappear into the distance, never all current footballing evidence suggesting that we are heading pretty soon for making up the numbers.

Now if that's defeatist then it's also realistic, and short of an infusion of players in January I don't really give us much of a chance of avoiding the drop.  So be it, but let's give the 'this is a must win', 'we need to be beating Team A, B or C' stuff a rest, as facts will intrude soon enough.  Sad to say, there is not much of a positive case to be made for us right now.

 

[sonsanorak]

Because we are the only club in Scotland that would put up with the recent results and performances, if he was at any other club he would be gone by now, probably long ago!
..

Not sure this comment is right; i know dundee and dunfermline have struggled of late and the expectation is that they'd both be further up their leagues.