Jump to content

Belfast Council remove Union Flag


~~~

Recommended Posts

Would it be possible for NI to be Irish to the Irish and British to the British?

They're all Irish and all British. If some of them are too stupid to relaise that, it shouldn't be our problem.

I can see an almighty fight between the UK and the Republic for NI....

"You take it!"

"No. You take it!"

"No. You take it!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 2.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I think previous ROI governments have certainly publicly stated they favour a UI, even if privately everyone knew it was a game of call my bluff.

It was policy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not saying they should. It's you who is suggested the Unionists would want to leave if NI joined ROI. But the Nationalists haven't done that en masse in reverse.

I think previous ROI governments have certainly publicly stated they favour a UI, even if privately everyone knew it was a game of call my bluff.

I haven't suggesting anything like that! If NI joined the ROI you'd still have a large % of the populatin who would want to remain british (rightly so) I doubt they would leave NI. thats why i mentioned a possible reverse good friday agreement

I would't be surprised if the ROI was happy with the situation as it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has the ROI ever said they want a united Ireland? i've got no idea.

The original constitution made it clear that the Dublin governement claimed right to govern the whole Ireland

Article 2 said "The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas"

The republic formerly gave up that claim in the constitutional amendments that followed the Good Friday Agreement although still has a declared objective to "unite the Irish people"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Presumably Southerners would get a vote about unification. Can't imagine too many rational (versus misty eyed) voters welcoming the cost of controlling a load of enraged, sullen Unionists. Michael Collins was a hero for saving them from that. Probably why De Valera had him killed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Presumably Southerners would get a vote about unification. Can't imagine too many rational (versus misty eyed) voters welcoming the cost of controlling a load of enraged, sullen Unionists. Michael Collins was a hero for saving them from that. Probably why De Valera had him killed.

Michael Collins worked with the British Army during the Tan years...........or rather the Brits worked with him......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ROI is a bit of a mess right now. I wouldnt be surprised if Catholics within NI voted to stay in the union if it for the benefit of them. Being catholic doesn't mean you are a nationalist

Once of the reasons the Democratic Unionists rose abruptly from being three fringe blawbags & their tagalongs into taking over the shop was listening to political spin doctors hired from the States who told them the Roman Catholic middle classes were just waiting to be scooped up.

Robinson poo-pooed it, McCrea almost had a seizure at the idea, but Paisley was interested because of his own experience where virtually the entire of Rathlin Island (tiny as it may be) voted for him en bloc for decades simply because he'd been the first MP they'd ever had that bothered his shirt about the place (whatever else may be said about him, Paisley was a very good MP & MEP, & not merely by Northern Ireland's low work rate standards). He'd also taken note of comments Dr Gareth Fitzgerald had made about middle class Catholics being effectively the most disenfranchised group in Northern Ireland, simply because the SDLP & Sinn Fein took their vote for granted because "they have no choice".

The result was the DUP targetting the more affluent middle class areas at elections on the subject of abortion and birth control, in particular the UUP, SDLP & Sinn Fein's tacit consent on Northern Ireland coming into line with the rest of the UK on such matters, insinuating that the other parties were only "tribal" who would sell out the faiths they were claiming to defend to secularism at the first chance.

It was a cheap shot, but a very effective one - at the least middle class voters in one of the most active church attending areas of the UK would be thinking twice before voting for one of the DUPs main competitors, at best they'd grit their teeth & vote DUP in the hope of keeping the others out: in Northern Ireland, people have a bad habit of voting not so much for who they'd like to get in the most, but who they'd like to keep out the most.

It also wasn't the only one. Another had a section that in slagging off the UUP had a picture of David Trimble speaking at an Orange rally where he had an outstretched arm that could easily have been interpreted as a Hitler salute. Of course it wasn't, but it was a sleekit wink to older voters both Protestant and Catholic that Mr Nobel Peace Prize was someone that had been the deputy leader of the far-right Vanguard Unionists that hobnobbed with the National Front.

Goodness knows how many votes those leaflets may have got some Catholics - especially in Republican no-hope areas - to tactically vote DUP to boot the UUP incumbent out.

It also completely wrongfooted the UUP & especially Sinn Fein & the SDLP - both of whom never thought for a minute the Ballymena Blawbag's gang would have the audacity to chase after "their" votes. Afterwards everyone made the point of wooing Catholic middle class voters as well, but only with nods & winks to "upholdingt traditional values". For those voters who do consider themselves truly Catholic, it has presented a nasty little "just how Catholic are you?" dilemma come election time ever since - especially with the Vatican banging on about the evils of birth control big style over the last 20 years in particular.

That of course is only a small part of it: much of their success was turning Paisley's demagogue persona into a virtue - "what you see is what you get", pitted against a sea of mealy mouths spouting democratic platitudes whilst playing footsie behind the scenes with promise-breaking terrorists (Adams and Trimble) or excusing terrorist actions with the old defence of "whataboutery" (Hume); & no doubt with plenty sick to death of the Troubles beginning to think maybe it was time to give a chance to someone wasn't going to dress up what he stood for.

But once the DUP started fighting elections as a modern political party whilst the others continued to do so as if stuck in a 1970s timewarp, electorally they never looked back when previously they seemed dead & buried. And part of that no doubt was targeting what has previously been deemed untargetable - Catholic voters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe to bring it into line with U.K norms and have it flying on the designated days

Yep Kev, except the Nationalists wanted it taken down altogether. They weren't motivated by a Borg like assimilation with UK city hall standards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep Kev, except the Nationalists wanted it taken down altogether. They weren't motivated by a Borg like assimilation with UK city hall standards.

And they compromised by a solution bringing it into line with the UK. This was how the Nationalists dealt with things. The Unionists dealt with things by rioting. This isn't really a "both sides equally to blame" scenario...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And they compromised by a solution bringing it into line with the UK. This was how the Nationalists dealt with things.

Well, no. They had no choice but to compromise, given they couldn't have won the vote otherwise.

They had no need to bring the motion in the first place. It's beyond petty and stupid. Why do Nationalists get so excited about flags?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This isn't really a "both sides equally to blame" scenario...

No it isn't. The violent protests are clearly worse than the original offence.

But let's not pretend that the Nationalists are blameless here either.

I wouldn't even mind if they were consistent. But the same parties so concerned about ensuring the Union flag be banished, used their votes to ensure that a children's playground stayed named after an IRA Hunger striker. That's really good for the fostering of cross-community bonhomie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, no. They had no choice but to compromise, given they couldn't have won the vote otherwise.

They had no need to bring the motion in the first place. It's beyond petty and stupid. Why do Nationalists get so excited about flags?

So what you're saying is that Northern Irish politicians who believe in independence, having democratically won enough influence, should in no way attempt to do anything that could possibly be construed as a bit "Nationalist"? What next? Socialist politicians should make no effort to implement left leaning policies in case it antagonises the conservatives?

You are aware that this puts you in the same category as the likes of George Foulkes and Alun Cochrane (he of the Daily Telegraph), who kicked off in peals of outrage when the SNP renamed the Scottish Executive to become the Scottish Government? I mean how DARE they!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They proposed having it taken down altogether knowing full well that wasn't going to happen so rather than try to force the issue they compromised

The political parties that are at fault here are the Unionist parties that called the people on to the streets in the first place,which in the D.U.P's case was a blatant attempt to blacken the Alliance party and try and win seats back that it had lost to it in East Belfast

Yes yes yes, all very well, but the real offenders here are the nationalist parties, who disgustingly, disgracefully, and err, democratically elected to make a political gesture, showing shameful and unprecedented party politics. Something which the Norn Irish Unionists, or indeed, politicians at any level anywhere else, could never be accused of. Or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what you're saying is that Northern Irish politicians who believe in independence, having democratically won enough influence, should in no way attempt to do anything that could possibly be construed as a bit "Nationalist"? What next? Socialist politicians should make no effort to implement left leaning policies in case it antagonises the conservatives?

Do they believe in Independence? Really?

If only that were true....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something which the Norn Irish Unionists, or indeed, politicians at any level anywhere else, could never be accused of. Or something.

See, here you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what they did do. Which so incensed the Nationalists.

In a way, it's like Zimbabwe. What do you do when you come to power after years of oppression? Say "Right, we've had enough of that, we'll do it properly" or say "Great, now it's our turn, let's get them"?

The Unionists are absolutely no better. But so the cycle of violence (© Colin Bateman) goes on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As is the case here, you feel the Alliance party, in their role as Lib Dem "brakes of bawbaggery" will suffer the worst consequences of the fallout.

They are in a pretty invidious position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See, here you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what they did do. Which so incensed the Nationalists.

In a way, it's like Zimbabwe. What do you do when you come to power after years of oppression? Say "Right, we've had enough of that, we'll do it properly" or say "Great, now it's our turn, let's get them"?

The Unionists are absolutely no better. But so the cycle of violence (© Colin Bateman) goes on.

Thats exactly what this is like.

"Thats right, for years, we've been persecuted, prejudiced against, there is a whole history of violence and oppression against our community, but now, finally, after all these years, payback. Time to exact our revenge! Lets only fly the British flag from government buildings on the same official days as the rest of the UK. That'll show these b*****ds!"

Edited to add, presumably, for a follow up, the next time they order new christmas lights at that council, they will ensure that there is a slightly better ratio of green bulbs to blue ones. The dastards that they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...