topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 If the people of Belfast get this upset with their council about a flag can you imagine how they'd deal with the Edinburgh Tram fiasco? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deky Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Well, I'm impressed with flyingrodent and agree with him 100% here. I'm posting from my phone and cannot see what football team he supports. And I don't care. The clue is in his username and I don't mean wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 If the people of Belfast get this upset with their council about a flag can you imagine how they'd deal with the Edinburgh Tram fiasco? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Good God. Well, it's pretty simple. Here are some behaviours that you can't legitimately draw equivalences between... a) Making videos, even if they're made with explicit intent to be offensive, and democratically passing statutes, even if they're explicitly intended to be offensive, and... b) Smashing shit up, mobbing and rioting and throwing petrol bombs at coppers. Now, it shouldn't be necessary to get into a lecture on why being offensive or passing inflammatory laws is undesirable but basically not that bad, whereas smashing shit up, mobbing and rioting and throwing petrol bombs at coppers really is very, very bad indeed. Let's just say that it basically boils down to whether you think democracy and free speech, even badly applied, are in any way equivalent to trashing streets and fighting with the cops. Who said they were equivalent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrif John Bunnell Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 If the people of Belfast get this upset with their council about a flag can you imagine how they'd deal with the Edinburgh Tram fiasco? Unless there was some bigot points to be earned, I doubt the fuckwits in Norn Iron would be overly bothered about something as trivial as £1bn being spunked on a pointless transport system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Unless there was some bigot points to be earned, I doubt the fuckwits in Norn Iron would be overly bothered about something as trivial as £1bn being spunked on a pointless transport system. Unless it was painted green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisal Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 If the people of Belfast get this upset with their council about a flag can you imagine how they'd deal with the Edinburgh Tram fiasco? £billion over budget. Ah well that happens 5 years late. Never mind but late than never What d'ya mean no union fleg on the front. Burn the the lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 http://www.bbc.co.uk...reland-21021695 Well said that man. Would have thought that represents the views of a massive majority in NI, from whatever background, especially those in areas where it's kicking off. The politicians from both sides who created the situation for their own ends won't give a fcuk unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 http://www.bbc.co.uk...reland-21021695 Ah Kevin. Master of the evil Loyalist linkage. Shame you didn't manage to make it here after a check the BBC website on Jan 8th : "Trouble broke out as about 250 of the protesters passed the Short Strand on their return to east Belfast. They were attacked by a crowd of up to 70 nationalists who had gathered at the interface. The nationalists threw a number of missiles, including bottles, at the loyalist protesters as they passed. Police worked to disperse the crowd at Short Strand, and when they tried to move the flag protesters up the Lower Newtownards Road, officers were attacked with petrol bombs, bricks, stones and bottles." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunfellaff Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Ah Kevin. Master of the evil Loyalist linkage. Shame you didn't manage to make it here after a check the BBC website on Jan 8th : "Trouble broke out as about 250 of the protesters passed the Short Strand on their return to east Belfast. They were attacked by a crowd of up to 70 nationalists who had gathered at the interface. The nationalists threw a number of missiles, including bottles, at the loyalist protesters as they passed. Police worked to disperse the crowd at Short Strand, and when they tried to move the flag protesters up the Lower Newtownards Road, officers were attacked with petrol bombs, bricks, stones and bottles." :lol: So the nice flag protesters that were attacked just happened to have ''petrol bombs, bricks, stones and bottles'' ...... H_B, if I didnt know what it allegedly stood for, I would be thinking it was ''magee-esque'' for 2 filtered words........ (3,7) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingrodent Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 :lol: So the nice flag protesters that were attacked just happened to have ''petrol bombs, bricks, stones and bottles'' ...... Going by some of the comments here, you must surely believe that "petrol bombs, bricks, stones and bottles" don't have non-violent uses in riots, because you're a Celtic supporter. How very depressing and predictable your entirely accurate and indisputable observation is, since all of our judgements on straightforward issues are inherently suspect thanks to the damn football team we support. Apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 How very depressing and predictable your entirely accurate and indisputable observation is, since all of our judgements on straightforward issues are inherently suspect thanks to the damn football team we support. Apparently. Well, your one sided agenda driven summary of events on this thread so far are definitely influenced by your own small minded viewpoint, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingrodent Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Well, your one sided agenda driven summary of events on this thread so far are definitely influenced by your own small minded viewpoint, yes. Yes, sticking up for the democratic process over violent thuggery probably is "one-sided", in the sense that I'm not granting rioters diminished responsibility because they are, like, upset about some bullshit. And pinning the blame for violent thuggery on the violent thugs themselves could be seen as "agenda driven", if by that you mean "Holding people responsible for their own actions, rather than searching high and low for all manner of feeble excuses to spread the blame and thus make their behaviour seem less contemptible". I mean, the points I'm laying out here are the bedrock of democratic society, but I suppose to some people, that could be interpreted as a "small-minded viewpoint". After all, folk who regard ongoing, unfocused violence as a legitimate response to minor statutory jiggery-pokery by elected officials, are probably struggling with the entire concept of democracy itself in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Yes, sticking up for the democratic process over violent thuggery probably is "one-sided", in the sense that I'm not granting rioters diminished responsibility because they are, like, upset about some bullshit. Protests, are absolutely part of the democratic process, whether you agree with their point of contention or not. For example, I completely disagreed with the Student protest over Tuition fees, but I respect their right to protest. Ideally, protests would be completely peaceful, but this is often not the case, as has been proven in recent years in London also. And pinning the blame for violent thuggery on the violent thugs themselves could be seen as "agenda driven", No, swing and a miss I'm afraid. Concentrating on only one set of violent thugs (those whose cause/politics you don't happen to like much) and sweep, sweep, sweeping about another set of violent scum (those whose cause/politics you do happen to like) is where your hugely transparent agenda comes in to play. Violence isn't a quantitative thing to condemn. You either condemn all violence or none. You can't pick and choose which violent thugs to villify and which to ignore I'm afraid. Well, you can if you are a sectarian bigot of course. There's been an obvious line of attack from predominantly the Celtic fans on this thread, which involves going quiet when Nationalist thugs are criticised, or demanding that any such criticism be played down, as there's nothing to see there, let's move on to talk about the Loyalists again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingrodent Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Protests, are absolutely part of the democratic process, whether you agree with their point of contention or not. For example, I completely disagreed with the Student protest over Tuition fees, but I respect their right to protest. Ideally, protests would be completely peaceful, but this is often not the case, as has been proven in recent years in London also. This is intentional elision of "the right to protest, especially over actually pressing political issues with serious and widespread effects" with "violent and pointless riots over a period of many weeks involving chucking petrol bombs at coppers", and it should be treated with suspicion. People don't accidentally confuse the two, unless they're at it in some way. If it's coming from a person who then goes on to raise a relatively* minor incident of violence by other parties, and who then leaps to a whole bunch of dipshit, unsupported conclusions about how much other people excuse violence when it's committed by "those whose cause/politics you do happen to like", it should be met with hilarity. When both of these behaviours are coming from a person who can't produce any evidence whatsoever backing up his accusations of excusing violence or supporting any causes, except some anally-extracted conclusions based on the things that other people don't say, it should be met with rude hand gestures and mockery. But my Mum never brung me up like that. *Note here - relatively minor does not mean Not serious or Not contemptible. Pretending that it does is intentionally missing the point and non-partisan readers should treat that kind of behaviour pretty mercilessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 This is intentional elision of "the right to protest, especially over actually pressing political issues with serious and widespread effects" with "violent and pointless riots over a period of many weeks involving chucking petrol bombs at coppers", and it should be treated with suspicion. Unfortunately there isn't a protest commission, chaired by you, who decides who can and who cannot protest democratic decisions and on what basis. Your crypto-fascist tendency to control this is noted though. If it's coming from a person who then goes on to raise a relatively* minor incident of violence by other parties, Yes, it's amazing that the pro-Nationalist posters, who have been swarming over this thread like flies around shite, somehow, mysteriously, seemed to omit this violence, in amongst their head-shaking diatribe about the disgraceful rioting in Belfast. I'm sure this is hugely coincidental, and in no way a conscious choice. Just busy that night/morning... couldn't get onto the BBC website.... forgot to link to it etc. But my Mum never brung me up like that. Nature and nurture is an interesting debate, but I am not inclined to blame your parents for the way you are, without having met them. I think you have to take responsibility for being a c**t upon yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingrodent Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Unfortunately there isn't a protest commission, chaired by you, who decides who can and who cannot protest democratic decisions and on what basis. This is true - there is no Protest Commission. On the other hand, there is what we might think of as a Sustained Mobbing and Rioting Commission - it's called the Government of the United Kingdom, elected by the people of the United Kingdom, and that it's long since determined that sustained mobbing and rioting is not a legitimate form of protest and is, in fact, very illegal indeed. And let's note again that you are deliberately conflating "the right to protest" with "violent attacks on the police". Let's also note that you're not doing this because you don't understand what you're saying, but that you are doing it because you want to muddy a very stark and simple issue with irrelevant bullshit. Your crypto-fascist tendency to control this is noted though. Absolutely stark-staring, smearing-your-crap-up-the-walls mental and deranged. So, saying that mobbing and rioting is wrong and should be opposed by decent people is a "crypto-fascist tendency". Uh-huh. (Twiddles index finger at temple-height). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingrodent Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Yes, it's amazing that the pro-Nationalist posters... In that quote, we see this entire mentality laid bare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deky Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I wonder if all the Celtic fans defending Nationalists in Northern Ireland are also Scottish nationalists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 I wonder if all the Celtic fans defending Nationalists in Northern Ireland are also Scottish nationalists? Chances are they are labour supporters, But big differences between Scotland and Northern Ireland! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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