Belfast Council remove Union Flag

[Half Rice Half Chips]

As an aside, can anyone tell me what country the Boyne is in please?

The river is in the ROI mate - not sure I get your point though.

Are you pointing out the irony of Protestantism's/Loyalism's most iconic battlefield being in the ROI? Don't really find it that strange TBH, just one of those quirks of geography.

[xbl]

Uh huh...and your views on the violent missile throwing Nationalist thugs disgracing themselves are?

What?

You are obsessed with trying to blame Nationalists for this! This isn't an "equally at fault" thing.

[Gaz]

You are obsessed with trying to blame Nationalists for this! This isn't an "equally at fault" thing.

It doesn't seem like he's trying to blame Nationalists, just that he's pointing out there are several on this thread quick to condemn loyalists for their violence whilst refusing to even acknowledge that some nationalists are carrying out violence of an equal measure.

[welshbairn]

The river is in the ROI mate - not sure I get your point though.

Are you pointing out the irony of Protestantism's/Loyalism's most iconic battlefield being in the ROI? Don't really find it that strange TBH, just one of those quirks of geography.

It was a scrap between European mercenaries anyway, a mix of religions on either side. And King James's Grandad invented the Union Flag!

[topcat(The most tip top)]

My turn

In what modern day country is the river Indus?

[Gaz]

My turn

In what modern day country is the river Indus?

Is the answer "Hull City"?

[H_B]

This is in stark contract to those who seem to defend and excuse the violence of the last month over a flag.

Who has defended and excused violence?

Well apart from Nationalist bigots like yourself of course.

[welshbairn]

I just think it's funny that the Boyne was, indeed, Surrendered.

Anyway.... The suggestion that the nationalist violence on the short strand equates to the carnage inflicted upon eldest for over a month by loyalist chavs is comical and sad in equal measure.

I'm a Scot with no stake in Northern Ireland. I can guarantee that the next time these "dissident republicans" hurt someone you'll see me condemning it utterly, with no caveat.

This is in stark contract to those who seem to defend and excuse the violence of the last month over a flag.

You seem to think that the flag was important enough when you defend Sinn Fein for removing it, knowing exactly what the reaction was likely to be.

[Quintessentially British]

What part of NI are you from again?

Do I need to live there to have an opinion on it?

[H_B]

I have not defended or excused any violence. I have though pointed out that it's not realistic to equate the nationalist violence in the Short Strand to the month long carnage caused by the chavs in rangers tracksuits.

Who has equated the violence?

The facts are that both Loyalists and Nationalists have engaged in violence during this period. It's completely unacceptable from both communities, but it's what we have come to expect of them.

[H_B]

Some neds are upset because they want everything their way and they have become violent in response to a democratic outcome.

And some neds have attacked peaceful protesters engaged in a legitimate protest against a political decision they don't agree with, as regularly happens in a democratic society, all because they are violent thugs.

[~~~]

but it's what we have come to expect of them.

pretty much this, some people here are almost taking side, Either blaming loyalists or nationalists, when they are all as bad as each other.

The quicker we get shot of the place the better IMO, If the loyalist want to stay "british" then they need to start acting they need to grow up a bit and concertate on making NI at least worthwhile for the union, the rest of the UK either don't care about NI or are getting sick of pissing away money on them

If Nationalists want to a unity Ireland, fine they know they have to go through the democratic process. stop the pettyness over silly things like flags and accept they are part of the UK until or if that vote ever comes. also they are doing themselves no favours either, I know it i was from the ROI i'd want nothing to do with that shitstorm up north

[H_B]

pretty much this, some people here are almost taking side, Either blaming loyalists or nationalists, when they are all as bad as each other.

I felt sorry for the people on that "silent majority are nice" march at the weekend. Wee girls of 5 holding "Peace" banners - what chance have they got?

Things like this prove though that it doesn't take that many scumbags from each community to cause chaos.

[flyingrodent]

pretty much this, some people here are almost taking side, Either blaming loyalists or nationalists, when they are all as bad as each other.

The quicker we get shot of the place the better IMO, If the loyalist want to stay "british" then they need to start acting they need to grow up a bit and concertate on making NI at least worthwhile for the union, the rest of the UK either don't care about NI or are getting sick of pissing away money on them

If Nationalists want to a unity Ireland, fine they know they have to go through the democratic process. stop the pettyness over silly things like flags and accept they are part of the UK until or if that vote ever comes. also they are doing themselves no favours either, I know it i was from the ROI i'd want nothing to do with that shitstorm up north

Well, look. While it's true to say that in many respects, "Both sides are as bad as each other" in a general sense...

It really is worth pointing out that in the present situation, it's perfectly acceptable to add "But it is a small bunch of monobrowed mouth-breathers from the Unionist side that is, by some distance, the primary cause of both the initial and the continuing violence in this specific instance".

If it were monobrowed mouth-breathers from the other side causing the vast majority of these problems, it'd then be legitimate to call them the primary cause. Because they would be.

Noting this doesn't absolve anyone else who's chucked bricks and so forth. Nor does it imply tacit support for this, or overwrought condemnation for that. It's a straightforward recognition that this is a situation which has direct, personally-accountable culprits.

Attempts to say "Oh well, whatabout this and that" should really be recognised as the bullshit diversions they are. It may well be true that Nationalist scratters are just as bad as Unionist neds in the grand scheme of things, but it's overwhelmingly Unionist neds who are out in the street battering coppers right now.

The idea that we should respond to this with some weak "On the one hand... on the other hand" condemnations of violence in the abstract are highly convenient, and unlikely to be repeated by some on this thread when the boot is on the other foot.

[welshbairn]

Well, look. While it's true to say that in many respects, "Both sides are as bad as each other" in a general sense...

It really is worth pointing out that in the present situation, it's perfectly acceptable to add "But it is a small bunch of monobrowed mouth-breathers from the Unionist side that is, by some distance, the primary cause of both the initial and the continuing violence in this specific instance".

If it were monobrowed mouth-breathers from the other side causing the vast majority of these problems, it'd then be legitimate to call them the primary cause. Because they would be.

Noting this doesn't absolve anyone else who's chucked bricks and so forth. Nor does it imply tacit support for this, or overwrought condemnation for that. It's a straightforward recognition that this is a situation which has direct, personally-accountable culprits.

Attempts to say "Oh well, whatabout this and that" should really be recognised as the bullshit diversions they are. It may well be true that Nationalist scratters are just as bad as Unionist neds in the grand scheme of things, but it's overwhelmingly Unionist neds who are out in the street battering coppers right now.

The idea that we should respond to this with some weak "On the one hand... on the other hand" condemnations of violence in the abstract are highly convenient, and unlikely to be repeated by some on this thread when the boot is on the other foot.

It's clear from this thread that the only people saying it's all the fault of the Nationalists are Rangers fans. And the only people who are saying it's all the fault of the Unionists are Celtic fans, with honourable exceptions. Depressingly predictable.

[flyingrodent]

It's clear from this thread that the only people saying it's all the fault of the Nationalists are Rangers fans. And the only people who are saying it's all the fault of the Unionists are Celtic fans, with honourable exceptions. Depressingly predictable.

Well, that won't do really. To pick a random example - when various Muslim fannies were rioting and smashing shit up in other countries because some idiot had made a film that upset them, the only people I saw suggesting that the violence was largely the film-maker's fault were people I had previously known to be morons.

At no point do I remember anyone saying Well, you only think the rioters/filmmakers are to blame because you support (x) team.

Which is to say, there are some fairly stark and simple issues of personal responsibility - and of right versus wrong - here that are easily spotted and aren't at all dependent on which damn football team you support.

[welshbairn]

Well, that won't do really. To pick a random example - when various Muslim fannies were rioting and smashing shit up in other countries because some idiot had made a film that upset them, the only people I saw suggesting that the violence was largely the film-maker's fault were people I had previously known to be morons.

At no point do I remember anyone saying Well, you only think the rioters/filmmakers are to blame because you support (x) team.

Which is to say, there are some fairly stark and simple issues of personal responsibility - and of right versus wrong - here that are easily spotted and aren't at all dependent on which damn football team you support.

When the said film makers declared that their intention when making the film was to stir up shit in the Middle East, they have to bear part of the responsibility for the consequences, just as Sinn Fein do when they baited the Unionist by taking down the flag. In neither case does this excuse the rioting Arabs or Unionists, can you not see that?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

It's clear from this thread that the only people saying it's all the fault of the Nationalists are Rangers fans. And the only people who are saying it's all the fault of the Unionists are Celtic fans, with honourable exceptions. Depressingly predictable.

Presumably you mean dishonourable exceptions as the exceptions would be any supporters of other teams who are also taking a similarly partisan view of events.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

My turn

In what modern day country is the river Indus?

Who did Arsenal beat in the Semi Final before winning their first FA Cup in 1930

Is the answer "Hull City"?

Correct

And well done for spotting my typo

[flyingrodent]

When the said film makers declared that their intention when making the film was to stir up shit in the Middle East, they have to bear part of the responsibility for the consequences, just as Sinn Fein do when they baited the Unionist by taking down the flag. In neither case does this excuse the rioting Arabs or Unionists, can you not see that?

Good God.

Well, it's pretty simple. Here are some behaviours that you can't legitimately draw equivalences between...

a) Making videos, even if they're made with explicit intent to be offensive, and democratically passing statutes, even if they're explicitly intended to be offensive, and...

b) Smashing shit up, mobbing and rioting and throwing petrol bombs at coppers.

Now, it shouldn't be necessary to get into a lecture on why being offensive or passing inflammatory laws is undesirable but basically not that bad, whereas smashing shit up, mobbing and rioting and throwing petrol bombs at coppers really is very, very bad indeed.

Let's just say that it basically boils down to whether you think democracy and free speech, even badly applied, are in any way equivalent to trashing streets and fighting with the cops.