David W Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 How many promotion places for the 18 team league? That'll only work if you have 3 down and 3 up (2 automatic, 1 through playoffs). I'm happy with anything that stops us playing the same teams every few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I'm to surmise from this trainwreck that the absent fans (of whom there are actually remarkably few) are going to come flooding back if the senior setup is shrunken? "Great news, son! East Fife aren't in the SFL anymore! Let's go to a Motherwell game!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Koop Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Maybe not, but we have 42 senior league teams. Could you please explain why you believe 42 clubs are bad for senior football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Come off it! "Because we have 2 clubs in the top echelons of Europe financially"? Maybe you've just arrived from Mars so didn't hear what went on last year but Rangers went bust because they could not pay NI and VAT. And? Look at Spain. Try googling "Valencia - financial problems". Rangers are still, even in the third division, operating with a wagebill in excess of the top clubs in countries of similar population to Scotland. Both Celtic and Rangers (due to matchday revenue and merchandise sales primarily, not through TV money) are still in the top echelons of European football financially. Nowhere near as high as they used to be, because of the avalanche of TV money to their competitors, but still vastly superior to the likes of FC Copenhagen or Gothenburg. Scotland cannot be compared to Sweden and Denmark in glowing terms because, unlike those countries, we have two massive clubs, built by decades of bigotry and hatred to be global entities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Theres no relation between USH and called off matches. Especially if, like Falkirk, you have an expensive USH system that doesn't work properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I'm to surmise from this trainwreck that the absent fans (of whom there are actually remarkably few) are going to come flooding back if the senior setup is shrunken? "Great news, son! East Fife aren't in the SFL anymore! Let's go to a Motherwell game!" This is the problem with these kinds of debates. An idiot says something on TV or writes it in The Sun and thousands of other idiots just parrot it without the ability to actually think about what they're saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relichtie Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 12 12 18 looks on the cards One question springs to mjnd for me. Where will Rangers fit into this plan? If they win Div 3, they will be the 32nd or 33rd placed team, but will they miracullously jump in the 2nd 12 tier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I can see the logic, I just can't help feel it will leave some teams adrift. Unless you wipe the points entirely at the split and see the first 22 games as a qualifier for the three leagues of eight. Not sure how trophies would be distributed, would it be SPL1 and SPL 2 titles with the post-split sections almost being like qualifiers for Europe and promotion/relegation? Or vice versa with three titles? The idea of an 18 team league that would basically be a national part-time championship does seem quite tasty though if there's a mechanism to relegate to regional leagues. I currently feel the arse end of SFL3 (East Stirling the only permanent resident really) is of a standard which really should not be playing in a national league, but there are teams from the EoS and Highland league and even a few juniors that could narrow the gap in standard between the top and bottom of that league. Thats a couple of good points, actually. Wiping the points for the middle 8 would be the simplest solution but, as you say, you're effectively creating two seasons. I think Im beginning to understand why Longmuir was concerned about explaining this to fans. Trophies, too, are something I hadnt thought of. Im not sure I agree with HJs suggestion of a trophy for each 8. The top 8, obviously, take care of themselves, but in my opinion there shouldnt be an "reward" for winning the bottom 8. The big question, though, is what do you do with the middle 8. I suppose if you wipe the points then its easier but Im not sure you arent actually making it harder for a, current, SPL1 team to win something. I like the concept of the 8-8-8 split, in terms of playing different teams each season and the potential for quite a lot of change in the leagues each year but Im not as convinced by it as I was. I'm to surmise from this trainwreck that the absent fans (of whom there are actually remarkably few) are going to come flooding back if the senior setup is shrunken? "Great news, son! East Fife aren't in the SFL anymore! Let's go to a Motherwell game!" I think if you're going to even talk about mergers, reducing the number of clubs etc, you have to take a very long term view of it. Theres no doubt that a lot of fans wouldnt switch allegiance short term, but the question should be asked of the benefits in 5, 10 even 15 years. Im not saying I think there should be less clubs, mind you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankies Alive Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Still no mention of a pyramid system I notice. When will they learn that lower league gate prices are too expensive? I went to Morton - Dumbarton last week as a neutral and it was £15 to get in,thats way too much for that standard of football. Throw in the fact that as a home fan you have to pay that again to watch the same game and you have a major reason as to why Scottish football is dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam4267 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Pyramid system is the only thing that matters. You could make a few changes to the SPL and SFL but overall it works so why change a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Pyramid system is the only thing that matters. You could make a few changes to the SPL and SFL but overall it works so why change a good thing. Who is it you think wants in to this pyramid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 When will they learn that lower league gate prices are too expensive? I went to Morton - Dumbarton last week as a neutral and it was £15 to get in,thats way too much for that standard of football. Ultimately the problem is that clubs have to replace that income. Just as clubs aren't going to accept losing home games (perhaps 1 if it's compensated through larger central revenues), they won't cut prices if it means less money. There's little evidence that, say, cutting prices 1/3 will boost crowds 50%. This issue is probably particularly acute in tier 2 where clubs are obsessed with staying full-time. Whether it's right or wrong, that's what they want to do, and this reform seems aimed at assisting that. Throw in the fact that as a home fan you have to pay that again to watch the same game and you have a major reason as to why Scottish football is dying. Scottish football isn't dying. As regards the discussion on the practicalities of the 12-12-18 model... my preference would be 12-12-10-10 btw, but leaving that aside... here's how I would do things in terms of the league structure: SPLA [Top 8] * clubs carry forward 50% of points gained in SPL1 * winner receives SPLA trophy * consider Europa League Play-off for 3rd-6th... 1-leg SFs - 3rd v 6th, 4th v 5th; 1-leg Final at neutral venue SPLB [Middle 8] * clubs carry forward points gained in matches versus 3 sides accompanying them in from SPL1 or SPL2 * or clubs carry forward bonuses... 4pts / 2pts / 1pt / 0pts... according to where finished 9th-12th and 1st-4th pre-split * top 4 play in SPL1 next season * winner receives SPLB trophy SPLC [bottom 8] * clubs carry forward 50% of points gained in SPL2 * winner receives SPLC trophy * 8th + 7th relegated; 6th into Play-off Final SPL National? (assuming 18-teams playing 34-game season) * 1st + 2nd promoted; 3rd-6th into Play-off QFs * combination of automatic relegation and play-offs into pyramid system Ground Criteria * SPL1 + SPL2 require USH, 3G, or combination of covers/tent/whatever if proven to be satisfactory * SPL1... minimum 4,000 seats; thereafter seats or 'safe standing' * SPL2... minimum capacity 2,000 including 1,000 seats * SPL National?... minimum capacity 1,000 including 250 seats Season * late July to late May * 2-weekends winter break in later January, immediately after SPL1/SPL2 split Scottish Cup * R1... up to 76 non-league clubs * R2... 18 SPL National clubs, 38 R1 winners * R3... 12 SPL2 clubs, 28 R2 winners * R4... 12 SPL1 clubs, 20 R3 winners * R5 * QFs * SFs * Final League Cup * R1 (2-legged)... 30 SPL2 + SPL National clubs * R2... 7 non-Europe SPL1 clubs, 15 R1 winners * R3... 5 non-Europe SPL1 clubs, 11 R2 winners * QFs * SFs (2-legged) * Final Challenge Cup * R1 (4 regions)... 30 SPL2 + SPL national clubs, 2 non-league clubs * R2 (4 regions) * QFs * SFs * Final Scottish Supercup * SPL1 + Scottish Cup holders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam4267 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Who is it you think wants in to this pyramid? Every club in Scotland should be allowed in the pyramid system. But the main thing is we need to get the best junior and amateur teams into the SFL. Maybe some clubs wouldn't want to join but many would and the ones that ldn't want to join eventually would give an as most would go to the pyramid system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Every club in Scotland should be allowed in the pyramid system. But the main thing is we need to get the best junior and amateur teams into the SFL. Maybe some clubs wouldn't want to join but many would and the ones that ldn't want to join eventually would give an as most would go to the pyramid system. I go to a lot of junior games and know a few folk involved and it's never even cropped up in conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utdtillidie Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 One question springs to mind for me. Where will Rangers fit into this plan? If they win Div 3, they will be the 32nd or 33rd placed team, but will they miraculously jump in the 2nd 12 tier? That's the question I want answered. If the recon happens this summer does that effectively mean there is no promotion for any teams in the 3rd Division? If they decide that The Rangers will play in the 2nd 12 by-passing the rest of the teams in the current 2nd Division then surely there must be some legal recourse for these teams? If there is no promotion this season then I can see The Rangers having a few things to say. Trouble ahead unless they leave the recon until 2014 - 2015 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 That's the question I want answered. If the recon happens this summer does that effectively mean there is no promotion for any teams in the 3rd Division? If they decide that The Rangers will play in the 2nd 12 by-passing the rest of the teams in the current 2nd Division then surely there must be some legal recourse for these teams? If there is no promotion this season then I can see The Rangers having a few things to say. Tbf, technically everyone in SFL3 would be getting promoted. Trouble ahead unless they leave the recon until 2014 - 2015 season. That's what should happen, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankies Alive Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I go to a lot of junior games and know a few folk involved and it's never even cropped up in conversation. There arent many clubs that would be interested in going up but there shouldnt be a barrier for the few that do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 There arent many clubs that would be interested in going up but there shouldnt be a barrier for the few that do! That's it in a nutshell. Just because a lot of non-league teams have no interest in moving into the league set-up, that shouldn't mean that the ones who are keen on it should be prevented from having the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 That's the question I want answered. If the recon happens this summer does that effectively mean there is no promotion for any teams in the 3rd Division? If they decide that The Rangers will play in the 2nd 12 by-passing the rest of the teams in the current 2nd Division then surely there must be some legal recourse for these teams? If there is no promotion this season then I can see The Rangers having a few things to say. Trouble ahead unless they leave the recon until 2014 - 2015 season. I worry that they might hark back to what happened in the last few Pre-SPL years. After season 93/94, they went from three divisions to four. For teams in the second division - then the bottom tier - it was decreed that places 2-6 would join the new second division, which became the second bottom tier. To create meaning however, the winners got to jump all the way to division 1, the 2nd tier of 4. That year, it was Stranraer. I can still see something happening that would take Rangers into the new middle division and reduce their top flight exile by a year. The fact that a precedent of sorts, exists, might make it possible that they'd try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendarroch Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I can still see something happening that would take Rangers into the new middle division and reduce their top flight exile by a year. The fact that a precedent of sorts, exists, might make it possible that they'd try. Excellent! I think they should. Better for all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.