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12 - 12 - 10 - 10 is now what must be backed for me

i am fully against the 18 team supershitfest

i also personally have no problem playing teams 4 times a season

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12 - 12 - 10 - 10 is now what must be backed for me

i am fully against the 18 team supershitfest

i also personally have no problem playing teams 4 times a season

Then why not have 10-10-10-10 Or 12-10-10-10? Why bother inviting another 2 clubs? If 4 times is fine shouldn't the quality of the second tier be improved rather than diluted?

It's increasingly becoming evident that while clubs are being criticised for not listening to fans, if they actually did they'd just get hit with a barrage of conflicting views.

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Unfortunately, football has got nothing to do with proportions. Whether your population is 5 million or 105 million your team still has to put 11 players on the pitch and they want paid good money. Low crowds = low income = low wages = low quality of players = low crowds.

Sorry, I just wanted to revisit this. Just to be clear, you are not happy having the highest proportional attendance of nations above 1 million people? You think this is "low"? Are you fucking mad? Is everything you believe so blatantly counter factual? Of course there is a "perception" but in such a self hating country that perception has always existed.

The biggest problem Scottish football faces is our reactionary and ignorant fan base.

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12 - 12 - 10 - 10 is now what must be backed for me

i am fully against the 18 team supershitfest

i also personally have no problem playing teams 4 times a season

That new 3rd tier is gunner be the dog's danglies...

1st & 2nd promoted, 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th into playoffs (with 5th & 6th of the Low8) and presumably 9th into a playoff and 10th relegated.

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Then why not have 10-10-10-10 Or 12-10-10-10? Why bother inviting another 2 clubs? If 4 times is fine shouldn't the quality of the second tier be improved rather than diluted?

There are issues in tiers 1/2 currently: an unbalanced SPL split, 1-up-1-down, the chasm of relegation. Moving to 12-12 solves this.

Doing so via 12-12-10-10 is preferable to 12-12-18, IMO.

It's increasingly becoming evident that while clubs are being criticised for not listening to fans, if they actually did they'd just get hit with a barrage of conflicting views.

True - on P&B alone, we've probably seen half-a-dozen proposals for top-tier size... over a dozen for all levels... and dozens of details (for promotion/relegation volume, play-off formats, etc.).

But this proposal does seem to deliver

* 1 governing body

* smoothed-out financial distribution

* much more promotion/relegation opportunity into SPL

* pyramid

* relaxed ground criteria

* other details (e.g. ending 11-1 voting)

which everyone wants.

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There are issues in tiers 1/2 currently: an unbalanced SPL split, 1-up-1-down, the chasm of relegation. Moving to 12-12 solves this.

Doing so via 12-12-10-10 is preferable to 12-12-18, IMO.

True - on P&B alone, we've probably seen half-a-dozen proposals for top-tier size... over a dozen for all levels... and dozens of details (for promotion/relegation volume, play-off formats, etc.).

But this proposal does seem to deliver

* 1 governing body

* smoothed-out financial distribution

* much more promotion/relegation opportunity into SPL

* pyramid

* relaxed ground criteria

* other details (e.g. ending 11-1 voting)

which everyone wants.

Does that not make 10-10-10-10 the more attractive option then? Less of a hit for relegation. If there is fairer financial spread then better 2nd tier prize money, parachute payments etc. Or are spl clubs to desperate to cling on to top flight status for that?

The other details are the really important parts. I've always said that if we can get those things sorted then the league restructuring will become simpler over time.

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Does that not make 10-10-10-10 the more attractive option then? Less of a hit for relegation. If there is fairer financial spread then better 2nd tier prize money, parachute payments etc. Or are spl clubs to desperate to cling on to top flight status for that?

The other details are the really important parts. I've always said that if we can get those things sorted then the league restructuring will become simpler over time.

Fans got furious over 10-team SPL, far more vocally than they have been so far about 12-12-18 or 12-12-10-10... and lots of clubs were opposed too.

That isn't surprising. And your suggestion of 10-10-10-10 would mean 2 fewer places in the top tier and 2 fewer in the national league system overall.

So even if 10-team SPL is best for prizemoney, "best v best", etc., presumably that doesn't necessarily make it politically achieveable.

Also - not expanding is one thing, contracting is quite something else in terms of fan reaction.

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Fans got furious over 10-team SPL, far more vocally than they have been so far about 12-12-18 or 12-12-10-10... and lots of clubs were opposed too.

That isn't surprising. And your suggestion of 10-10-10-10 would mean 2 fewer places in the top tier and 2 fewer in the national league system overall.

So even if 10-team SPL is best for prizemoney, "best v best", etc., presumably that doesn't necessarily make it politically achieveable.

Also - not expanding is one thing, contracting is quite something else in terms of fan reaction.

I agree with all that, I just think it highlights the gap between what many fans are calling for and what the clubs know is financially best for their club.

I still really like the idea of the bottom tier of 18 though. That's why I think 12-12-18 it's just about the best compromise. As I said in another thread: the league of 18 suits the ambitious clubs. Quite frankly I find it ridiculous that we should have 4 tiers and no regionalisation. Get to the 4th tier in most other nations of our size and you're looking at dozens of teams looking to progress. We're a long way from that, but it has to start with the beginnings of a pyramid system and putting the foot down at 3 top tiers.

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Then why not have 10-10-10-10 Or 12-10-10-10? Why bother inviting another 2 clubs? If 4 times is fine shouldn't the quality of the second tier be improved rather than diluted?

It's increasingly becoming evident that while clubs are being criticised for not listening to fans, if they actually did they'd just get hit with a barrage of conflicting views.

10-10-10-10 ? you want to expell clubs mr burley?

12-10-10-10 sounds pretty revolutionary ;)

my opinion was (and still is) that if they REALLY believe in this 12-12 into groups of 8 then the bottom 2 leagues should also be 12-12 into groups of 8

however that is not on the table, whats on the table is 12-12-18 or 12-12-10-10 there isn't really much you can do that will improve the bottom 2 leagues but there is certainly plenty you can do to make them worse and i see an 18 team league as one of them

your correct the "not listening to the fans" line is a load of crap because even people who want the same thing want something different it seems

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10-10-10-10 ? you want to expell clubs mr burley?

12-10-10-10 sounds pretty revolutionary ;)

my opinion was (and still is) that if they REALLY believe in this 12-12 into groups of 8 then the bottom 2 leagues should also be 12-12 into groups of 8

however that is not on the table, whats on the table is 12-12-18 or 12-12-10-10 there isn't really much you can do that will improve the bottom 2 leagues but there is certainly plenty you can do to make them worse and i see an 18 team league as one of them

your correct the "not listening to the fans" line is a load of crap because even people who want the same thing want something different it seems

The thing is, our country just doesn't have much in the way of FT times, yet we also have Celtic, so what may be appropriate for the part time teams may well not be appropriate for the full time teams.

I can see why they don't want to expand the top 2 tiers much, if it was 18-18 or 16-16 you'd make the 2nd tier pretty much part time. If it was something like 14-14 then the 2nd tier would be about half and half which I think would be really interesting as PT teams promoted would have a much better chance of staying up, consolidating, take the bigger gate receipts and then have a go at consolidating their position.

Whereas in the lower tiers, so long as there's enough promotion places to stop things getting stagnant, a big enough league to have us only playing each other twice would be the single most important thing to refresh part time football.

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Albeit 12-12-18 versus 12-12-10-10 doesn't actually change the number of clubs playing nationwide, well 42 v 44.

I'd prefer to reduce the number of clubs by at least 6, if not more, but the larger bottom league seems a good compromise to allow teams to continue to earn playing nationwide that want to.

I don't know why most of these teams wouldn't want regionalisation. Berwick are in an awkward position, il give you that. But surely it's in the interest of the Angus clubs always to be on the same league, same with Stirling/alloa and so on.

I certainly know that my problem with a league of 10 isn't the teams that are nearby. I don't mind how many times I have to go to Ayr, thistle, st mirren, Kilmarnock and so on. The main considerations for going to away games for me are time and money. I hardly ever travel far for away games. I know there are those who enjoy long away days, but it isn't really reflected in the numbers.

Working towards a 16-16 format with a proper pyramid system below would be my long term aim. With a rejuvenated league cup played in the early months of the season.

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I don't know why most of these teams wouldn't want regionalisation. Berwick are in an awkward position, il give you that. But surely it's in the interest of the Angus clubs always to be on the same league, same with Stirling/alloa and so on.

I certainly know that my problem with a league of 10 isn't the teams that are nearby. I don't mind how many times I have to go to Ayr, thistle, st mirren, Kilmarnock and so on. The main considerations for going to away games for me are time and money. I hardly ever travel far for away games. I know there are those who enjoy long away days, but it isn't really reflected in the numbers.

I suspect there are lots of reasons why clubs do not want to vote themselves out of nationwide football... partly it's "pride and prestige" no doubt; partly the practical matter of it being easier to get sponsorshop etc. when you can demonstrate you play in a countrywide league; things like appearing in the Vidiprinter and 'proper' tables etc. in the national papers, which would likely stop if going regional; attractiveness to players of the national level versus another level of regional game?; fears they'd become excluded from the League Cup? etc. etc.

And as I think I said on another thread: few clubs would actually see any real cost saving. Clubs in the centre would still be visiting each other together with plenty trips out to the fringes (just all one half of the fringes), while clubs out on the fringe are still making lots of trips to the centre - but plenty use central-belt players anyway, so there's no major travel saving. And away fans can be fairly marginal at this level, numerically-speaking.

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12-12-10-10 is an appalling idea. It does absolutely nothing to relieve the ennui down here.

18 will not create meaningless games as long as there are enough promotion places, I can't believe so many people don't understand this. Just because the gap in ability between the top and bottom will be greater doesn't mean there are any more points available per team, it will be much closer between each team and the middle of the table will be no further from either end than they would be in a league of 10. Basic maths!

What I really can't believe is my own clubs statement on the issue, basically says "if its not good enough for the SPL, why's it good enough for us?" Who cares what the SPL thinks, they're greedy fuckers only looking out for themselves.

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#SPL happy for #SFL to proceed with idea of 12-12-10-10. Reconstruction talks continue. #BBCSport

I bet they are, I can imagine the reaction "10-10, 18, whatever, knock yourself out" :lol:

exactly thats my point

the 18 was just thrown together as a kind of "oh shit we have these c***s to sort out aswell" & is the least appealing idea ive heard

ETA: football has meaningless games, we just dont play cup finals every week

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exactly thats my point

the 18 was just thrown together as a kind of "oh shit we have these c***s to sort out aswell" & is the least appealing idea ive heard

ETA: football has meaningless games, we just dont play cup finals every week

I seem to recall that originally the SPL suggested two REGIONAL leagues of 10 at that level.

18 is a much better idea - regardless of how they came up with it, and the amount of facepalming going on from the widely-held belief it would create meaningless games is not good for me.

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I seem to recall that originally the SPL suggested two REGIONAL leagues of 10 at that level.

18 is a much better idea - regardless of how they came up with it, and the amount of facepalming going on from the widely-held belief it would create meaningless games is not good for me.

meaningless games is not an issue to me as mentioned

a pre season friendly is a meaningless game & im sure some of those posting will attend those

however its not regional that's on the table, its the 2 bottom leagues as they with 2 new teams & with more money comming in

IF the 18 comes in , id be less happy playing in that than with how bad Ayr have been this season why 18 anyway why not 20

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#SPL happy for #SFL to proceed with idea of 12-12-10-10. Reconstruction talks continue. #BBCSport

I bet they are, I can imagine the reaction "10-10, 18, whatever, knock yourself out" :lol:

Would you rather the SPL dictated to SFL clubs exactly how they should be set up?

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