EdTheDuck Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 R.e. "no-one might go down"... what was Austrian/Swiss experience here? Mixed bag in both as far as I can see... in the 8 seasons the Austrians ran with it there was always at least 1 of the top 12 didn't come straight back up through the play-offs; 1 season only 1 came straight back up via playoffs, 3 seasons 2 came back up and 4 seasons 3 came back In Switzerland over their 16 seasons of it (or variations on it anyway): 1 season 1 came straight back up, 7 seasons 2 came back up, 4 seasons 3 made it and 4 years the bottom four from the original top 12 all came straight back up via play offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushroom Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 The only way you'll end up with fewer "meaningless games" is if you wipe the points altogether and just have a massive free-for-all in the last 14 games. If you have a group of 8 with some having 10 or 12 points more than others then it negates the competition and some teams will fall out of the competitition after a couple of games. How can you possibly judge what the points gap should be between a team who finished bottom of the SPL winning only 2 games out of their 22, with the team finishing top of SPL2 losing only 2 games out of their 22? Currently Dundee have 12 pts in the SPL while Morton have 39 in the First Division how would that split work? Are Dundees point worth more because they've played bigger teams? The whole thing is a bag of shit and no matter how it's calculated it isn't going to please everyone, far less anyone. No no no no no, that would create far more before the split. Celtic could easily be 20 points clear of 9th place within 10 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 No no no no no, that would create far more before the split. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 The only way you'll end up with fewer "meaningless games" is if you wipe the points altogether and just have a massive free-for-all in the last 14 games. If you have a group of 8 with some having 10 or 12 points more than others then it negates the competition and some teams will fall out of the competitition after a couple of games. How can you possibly judge what the points gap should be between a team who finished bottom of the SPL winning only 2 games out of their 22, with the team finishing top of SPL2 losing only 2 games out of their 22? Currently Dundee have 12 pts in the SPL while Morton have 39 in the First Division how would that split work? Are Dundees point worth more because they've played bigger teams? The whole thing is a bag of shit and no matter how it's calculated it isn't going to please everyone, far less anyone. I know you have a thing about the term 'meaningless' games and I know what you mean about every game having meaning in its own right. However, it's nothing new; even in the Golden Age (sic) there were less attractive games, Rangers played in front of 25,000 one week and 70,000 a couple weeks later; Aberdeen played in front of 10,000 one week and 25,000 another week. That's what I mean when I speak about meaningless games, I suppose I should really talk more about games that have something hanging on them rather than scatter gunning all the other games with a discourteous term like meaningless games. I don't think there is any structure that can attract more people on a more regular basis to run of the mill league games nowadays and so the option is to get more people in on occasion by having more games that are high stakes. I don't think the 12/12-8/8/8 is the best way to achieve that though; to me it suggests someone somewhere is saying "those eight clubs don't matter so can be thrown to the wolves in the name of high-stakes games but the Big Clubs are too important to dick around with". If play-offs or wiping points or halving points works for giving the lesser lights more games with meaning it should work across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 If play-offs or wiping points or halving points works for giving the lesser lights more games with meaning it should work across the board. I'd favour wiping of points everywhere, but there's no way it'll happen. Allowing it might create the danger of Celtic not winning over a 14 game sprint - they wouldn't accept that. The plan to wipe points only in the middle 8, can be justified in that the teams in it will come from 2 different places. With the other 8s, they've simply played each other already, and preserving point differentials is easier to support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 No no no no no, that would create far more before the split. Celtic could easily be 20 points clear of 9th place within 10 games. Maybe I should have made it clear but I was speaking specifically about the middle 8. How can you quantify the points earned in the top league by the club finishing 12th against the club finishing 1st in SPL2. For the top 8, just wipe all the points and goals gained and lost against the four teams that drop out, that way it's only the points against each other that are carried through. Same for the bottom eigh just wipe all the results against the four that go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I know you have a thing about the term 'meaningless' games and I know what you mean about every game having meaning in its own right. However, it's nothing new; even in the Golden Age (sic) there were less attractive games, Rangers played in front of 25,000 one week and 70,000 a couple weeks later; Aberdeen played in front of 10,000 one week and 25,000 another week. That's what I mean when I speak about meaningless games, I suppose I should really talk more about games that have something hanging on them rather than scatter gunning all the other games with a discourteous term like meaningless games. I don't think there is any structure that can attract more people on a more regular basis to run of the mill league games nowadays and so the option is to get more people in on occasion by having more games that are high stakes. I don't think the 12/12-8/8/8 is the best way to achieve that though; to me it suggests someone somewhere is saying "those eight clubs don't matter so can be thrown to the wolves in the name of high-stakes games but the Big Clubs are too important to dick around with". If play-offs or wiping points or halving points works for giving the lesser lights more games with meaning it should work across the board. There's a truth out there which noone wants to address, and it's this; There isn't a structure in football that does away with what you term "meaningless games". It's like Shangri-La, El Dorado, or Atlantis a mythical paradise that doesn't exist. This f**k up at the moment, 12-12-18, how many games are going to be rendered meaningless after the first round of 22 matches? Given that the leader of SPL2 at that juncture might not even get promoted you wouldn't get any argument from me, or them, if you called their whole season meaningless. Jock Stein used matches against the likes of Clyde, Stirling Albion, Raith Rovers, and Ayr United to blood the likes of Davie Hay, Lou Macari, Kenny Dalglish and Vic Davidson. By cutting the league ever shorter we still havent managed to make every game meaningful and in the process we've seen every club bar Celtic and Aberdeen relegated, and Aberdeen only escaped on a technicality. Every league needs a top, middle, and bottom. At the moment, and for the past decade or so, we have had a top and a bottom, no middle. All m,out and trousers with no guts. Give the likes of Motherwell, Hibs, Hearts St Mirren and Dundee room to breathe and develop. Stop threatening them with relegation year after year. Bring back the likes of Partick Thistle, Raith Rovers, and Ayr to yoyo up and down the leagues, see how much stronger the middle becomes. One thought that always annoys me, what if we still had a top 18 when the TV money came in, would our league be any better with more sides getting that cash? Would we be stronger in Europe? Would the likes of Dundee, Motherwell, and Dunfermline have had the financial problems they did have? I dont like splits, and point deductions, I am a firm believer in playing each other twice and the one with the most points wins the league. I am a reluctant convert to play-offs. What the game needs is an 18 team league, but that's not what the clubs want, and apparently it's not financially viable. Football in Scotland is fucked, and has been for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushroom Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Maybe I should have made it clear but I was speaking specifically about the middle 8. How can you quantify the points earned in the top league by the club finishing 12th against the club finishing 1st in SPL2. For the top 8, just wipe all the points and goals gained and lost against the four teams that drop out, that way it's only the points against each other that are carried through. Same for the bottom eigh just wipe all the results against the four that go up. Fair enough, it still has the issue of once a teams running clear at the top/marooned at the bottom they have no incentive to try for the remaining games. I don't see how they can pull this off without it being problematic one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy_logic Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Yeah but with the playoff cut off so high in a fairly small league - teams which are clearly going to be in the middle eight will have nothing to play for knowing their points will be reset, unless they don't reset them of course. I don't think many teams will clearly know they are in the middle eight until pretty near the split. Maybe 2-3 out of the eight at most. How many meaningless games will that create? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushroom Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 I was thinking more teams like Dundee, who have horrible starts - after about 8 games it was obvious they were for the bottom 4 of the SPL - and they would take the foot off the gas knowing the points would be reset and nothing they could do in the interim would give them any less chance of staying up in the middle 8, as it stands they're not actually relegated yet. It will take quite an effort to avoid it now, but there's still a point in them trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scodee Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 1358202477[/url]' post='6985864']The only way you'll end up with fewer "meaningless games" is if you wipe the points altogether and just have a massive free-for-all in the last 14 games. If you have a group of 8 with some having 10 or 12 points more than others then it negates the competition and some teams will fall out of the competitition after a couple of games. How can you possibly judge what the points gap should be between a team who finished bottom of the SPL winning only 2 games out of their 22, with the team finishing top of SPL2 losing only 2 games out of their 22? Currently Dundee have 12 pts in the SPL while Morton have 39 in the First Division how would that split work? Are Dundees point worth more because they've played bigger teams? The whole thing is a bag of shit and no matter how it's calculated it isn't going to please everyone, far less anyone. Spot on mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHoodedClaw Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 The SPL plan looks a non-starter now, let's be honest those running the game NEVER listen to the fans, is this why they keep having to change things . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag Nation Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 No they wont. There will be no promotion and they will be exactly where they are right now...The Bottom Tier. As for Rovers Lad point about fan boycotts...Why? It is in the rules that no team should be denied promotion due to league reconstruction. I thought the outcry in the summer was all about sporting integrity? Sorry to disappoint you, but the rules don't say "no team should be denied promotion ...". They say no MEMBER should be denied promotion. Sevco won't be a member until 2017, so no problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadSaint Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Ross County representative justifying the change in structure pre Saints game by "the fans don't like the uncertainty of not knowing how many home games they'll have" ??? How they going to like the uncertainty of not knowing what 8 teams they're paying to see in the final phase ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Agreed. At the moment there's an outside chance you'll only get 18 home games not 19... albeit, equally a chance you'll get 20!!... but you know 33 of 38 games beforehand. Under the new model you'll only know 22 of 36 beforehand, and could end-up in Middle 8 playing less glamorous opposition. It's certainly not a primary argument in favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 A 20 team SPL. Split into two groups of 10, after 18 games in each group, the top 5 in each group join together, keeping the points already won, and play a further 18 games for the title. The vbottom 5 in each group play a further 18 games to decide relegation, again keeping the same points. Alba Conference Celtic Rangers Hearts Hibs Motherwell Kilmarnock St Mirren Partick Morton Hamilton Caledonian Conference Aberdeen Dundee Utd Dundee St Johnstone Inverness CT Ross County Dunfermline Livingston Falkirk Raith Rovers 36 matches 18 home, 18 away, and all the derbies are kept together. 2 down, 2 up from the Championship, 22 teams = 42 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Why should the likes of Killie and Well be disadvantaged by having the two biggest teams in our league while Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc get a free ride? Why have a 3rd division outfit jumped straight into it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beermonkey Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 A 20 team SPL. Split into two groups of 10, after 18 games in each group, the top 5 in each group join together, keeping the points already won, and play a further 18 games for the title. The vbottom 5 in each group play a further 18 games to decide relegation, again keeping the same points. Alba Conference Celtic Rangers Hearts Hibs Motherwell Kilmarnock St Mirren Partick Morton Hamilton Caledonian Conference Aberdeen Dundee Utd Dundee St Johnstone Inverness CT Ross County Dunfermline Livingston Falkirk Raith Rovers 36 matches 18 home, 18 away, and all the derbies are kept together. 2 down, 2 up from the Championship, 22 teams = 42 games. Why the feck would they be in the top league next season ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Firstly, I thought you adhorred splits, TheLip69? Secondly, that's a pretty unfair system. You've got what have many will call the 4 biggest clubs in Scotland in 1 pool. Six of the "Big 8" are in 1 pool. In the other pool, the 'New Firm' have it fairly easy. Thirdly, as noted, why are Rangers going straight in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 The Status Quo or 12-12-18 are the only options Nothing else is possible Even 12-12-18 with slightly different splits or no splits or something completely different, status quo or the offer on the table and that's it, so says Mr. Doncaster ...so given his track record a completely new set-up will come out of the meeting on Monday? http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/talks-over-new-spl-sponsor-1556691 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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