Rob1885 Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Speak for yourself tbh. Where is our resident DAFC insider when you need him, to clear up all those misconceptions and heinous slurs placed on the DAFC board by outsiders? Step forward the poster 'Ronnie Wutherspoon', who just a few months ago assured us that in relation to Masterton and his band of puppet directors, everything was going to be just fine: Oooft. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parslad Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Excellent! Off down the shops for some popcorn, jelly and ice cream! Don't forget your Buckie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Jack D Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 The fact that they should doesn't mean i agree with it. Do you always argue with folk that agree with you? You haven't agreed with me: you've put forward a contradictory set of statements that you'll have to sort out in your own time. Whatever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1885 Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Don't forget your Buckie. Nowt wrong with some of the finest tonic wine neebur 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 More news from cloud cuckoo land... In The Sun - John Yorkston.... Chairman John Yorkston said: “We were informed by our solicitors of HMRC’s intentions in the afternoon. “We are in negotiations with several parties with a view to raising the money required to see us through this threat from HMRC.” No John, negotiations are get get bawbags like you and Masterton away tae f**k and save the club. I can't believe he's talking about it like everything is rosy and they just need to decide who will be the lucky party to put in enough cash to see us through to the next fiasco. In the same paper you have the real reality check - Andy Geggan living with his mum and still skint... http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/leaguedivision1/4840445/Going-full-time-with-Pars-was-a-dream-come-true-now-its-turned-into-a-NIGHTMARE.html I think it would take a miracle to leave us with any sort of club. Fortunately Leish does a nice line in miracles and great escapes so there's still hope but it really is grim grim grim. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 The majority of HMRC winding up petitions don't actually end up with a winding up order. All that has been served on Dunfermline is a bit of paper that says that we have asked the court to wind you up. In the majority of cases, either the money is found or a time to pay deal is struck before it calls in court. Where that is not possible, usually the company will try to control it'sown destiny by going for an administration order. Most of the time HMRC will be content to let that happen. An administrator needs something to work with but Dunfermline have five home games left and if they were in admin, I am sure the fans would rally round and they could maybe expect crowds of at least 3500, maybe with season ticket holders agreeing to pay in which would raise maybe £200k+. Add in fans fund raising efforts of at least another £100k, etc, etc. and the administrator would have maybe £300k to run the club until the end of the season. Playing and other staff would be cut to the absolute minimum. In perspective, Morton's entire first team pool costs circa £55k a month. Payment of debts is suspended by the admin order and the administrator would have a couple of months to find a buyer. Downside problems are that the club does not own the ground and it is not clear what security of tenure they have bearing in mind that apparently the company that does own the ground has a mortgage of £8m on it and could potentially go bust itself. Its not good times but its not yet terminal either! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whistle Blower Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Surely is a basic business principle to pay the tax man first ?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 The majority of HMRC winding up petitions don't actually end up with a winding up order. All that has been served on Dunfermline is a bit of paper that says that we have asked the court to wind you up. In the majority of cases, either the money is found or a time to pay deal is struck before it calls in court. Where that is not possible, usually the company will try to control it'sown destiny by going for an administration order. Most of the time HMRC will be content to let that happen. An administrator needs something to work with but Dunfermline have five home games left and if they were in admin, I am sure the fans would rally round and they could maybe expect crowds of at least 3500, maybe with season ticket holders agreeing to pay in which would raise maybe £200k+. Add in fans fund raising efforts of at least another £100k, etc, etc. and the administrator would have maybe £300k to run the club until the end of the season. Playing and other staff would be cut to the absolute minimum. In perspective, Morton's entire first team pool costs circa £55k a month. Payment of debts is suspended by the admin order and the administrator would have a couple of months to find a buyer. Downside problems are that the club does not own the ground and it is not clear what security of tenure they have bearing in mind that apparently the company that does own the ground has a mortgage of £8m on it and could potentially go bust itself. Its not good times but its not yet terminal either! The accountant on the steering group - the one guy who knows the books probably even better than Masterton - says there is zero prospect of administration. We either sort it out or it's immediate liquidation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecowden Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) Surely is a basic business principle to pay the tax man first ?? So you pay the tax man then have nothing left. I think you are simplyfying the issues here. Everybody deserves to be paid (players,staff,contractors,utilities) Edit to add - any creditor can apply for a winding up order. Edited March 14, 2013 by onecowden 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whistle Blower Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 So you pay the tax man then have nothing left. I think you are simplyfying the issues here. Everybody deserves to be paid (players,staff,contractors,utilities) Tax man is the one that can seriously f**k you, therefore should be paid first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecowden Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Tax man is the one that can seriously f**k you, therefore should be paid first. Read my edit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 The accountant on the steering group - the one guy who knows the books probably even better than Masterton - says there is zero prospect of administration. We either sort it out or it's immediate liquidation. I wonder if he has any insolvency experience. Most accountants and lawyers don't as it is a very specialist area and general practice accountants can get themselves into all sorts of bother dabbling in the black arts. Still, maybe I am being a bit insulting to the guy as he may have the requisite experience or have taken appropriate advice. Its just that on the face of it, I can't see what is different between Dunfermline's situation and Dundee's except maybe that we are closer to the end of the season than Dundee were. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 In reality, the taxman is a creditor in nearly every insolvency. I have been involved with companies with several years of unpaid PAYE and VAT as the taxman is not that great about chasing their debts. Once they start to chase though, they are pretty relentless. For me, the thing that has to be paid is wages and the writing really is on the wall when you can't do that. There is provision in insolvency legislation for pursuing directors personally where they have continued trading after they knew or should have known that the company was insolvent. If I was involved in this case I would be looking very carefully at the directors in that regard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_no_1 Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I wonder if he has any insolvency experience. Most accountants and lawyers don't as it is a very specialist area and general practice accountants can get themselves into all sorts of bother dabbling in the black arts. Still, maybe I am being a bit insulting to the guy as he may have the requisite experience or have taken appropriate advice. Its just that on the face of it, I can't see what is different between Dunfermline's situation and Dundee's except maybe that we are closer to the end of the season than Dundee were. I might be wrong, as I was in the foyet on Monday night & may have misheard him, but I'm sure I heard the accountant on the steering group (Stephen Taylor) saying that insolvency/liquidation was not what his firm usually deals with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I might be wrong, as I was in the foyet on Monday night & may have misheard him, but I'm sure I heard the accountant on the steering group (Stephen Taylor) saying that insolvency/liquidation was not what his firm usually deals with. Sounds like its Steve Taylor of Carter's who are a Glenrothes based firm with an office in Dunfermline. If that is the case, Carters are not involved in insolvency as far as I know and Steve's expertise is tax. I would be surprised though, if he is not taking insolvency advice from somewhere! Your steering group could really do with getting a friendly IP on board to advise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I wonder if he has any insolvency experience. Most accountants and lawyers don't as it is a very specialist area and general practice accountants can get themselves into all sorts of bother dabbling in the black arts. Still, maybe I am being a bit insulting to the guy as he may have the requisite experience or have taken appropriate advice. Its just that on the face of it, I can't see what is different between Dunfermline's situation and Dundee's except maybe that we are closer to the end of the season than Dundee were. I can't link to it just now but the herald has an article on it. I think you're also making the assumption that Masteton wants the club saved. East End is under the wing of East End Park Ltd (his company) - it doesn't belong to DAFC. Killing off the club would allow him to build more flats and recoup the kind of money he's never going to get from any buyout. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonsilitis Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I can't link to it just now but the herald has an article on it. I think you're also making the assumption that Masteton wants the club saved. East End is under the wing of East End Park Ltd (his company) - it doesn't belong to DAFC. Killing off the club would allow him to build more flats and recoup the kind of money he's never going to get from any buyout. If what you suggest is true, Mr Masterton could be on very shaky ground from a personal perspective and needs to be very careful not to incur personal liability. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSXR750 Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 In reality, the taxman is a creditor in nearly every insolvency. I have been involved with companies with several years of unpaid PAYE and VAT as the taxman is not that great about chasing their debts. Once they start to chase though, they are pretty relentless. For me, the thing that has to be paid is wages and the writing really is on the wall when you can't do that. There is provision in insolvency legislation for pursuing directors personally where they have continued trading after they knew or should have known that the company was insolvent. If I was involved in this case I would be looking very carefully at the directors in that regard. Allegedly, the directors who left were all given legal advice to do so due to them starting to uncover a little of the finanacial mess that was hidden from them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Allegedly, the directors who left were all given legal advice to do so due to them starting to uncover a little of the finanacial mess that was hidden from them. I don't even think you need an allegedly in there. Remember, Purvis was going to join the board too Stephen Taylor is his accountant and when he saw the books Purvis had to step away. They helped out at the club but have kept well away from joining up as directors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastermind Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 This popcorn is going down very nicely indeed. -5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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