Walking Down The Halbeath Road

[da_no_1]

Are you criticising Dundee and Ayr for this? The decent thing to do was to furlough the players, end of. 

I'm not criticising anyone.

[Enigma]

I certainly don’t think they have. The club kept to the terms of the contract and I’d do the same thing in their shoes.
The moral argument is entirely subjective . I have sympathy for the players who have been released but no more or less than I have sympathy for thousands of people who have lost their jobs during this crisis. 

The question should more be if you were in the players position would you be happy with how you were treated? Especially considering that pros at more contentiously run clubs are getting kept on through furlough.

[Poet of the Macabre]

1 hour ago, Enigma said:

 

The question should more be if you were in the players position would you be happy with how you were treated? Especially considering that pros at more contentiously run clubs are getting kept on through furlough.

 

I’d be disappointed for sure. Doesn’t mean the club should be obliged to keep a player beyond their contract.

There is no chance any player out of contract this summer expected to be renewed. Although since Pars have taken some flack for this, other clubs may think again I.e. when Liverpool and Tottenham did try to put staff on furlough.

[Guest Axle Grease]

Players come and go. Pars made a decision to let those go who were out of contract and were unlikely to be retained.

You keep them for a month, then what? If they'd been on furlough then Pars likely have made their wages up by the 20% (like other club employees) costing the club more money when it was inevitable what would happen, they'd be gone. 

Maybe there's issues with furloghing players who do not have a contract of employment. 

I'm sure the Pars Board would not have taken any aspect of this lightly, but the long term survival of the club will be the absolute necessity. 

I hope the guys all get jobs soon, they won't be the last to lose their jobs over this shite state of affairs. 

 

[ribzanelli]

10 hours ago, da_no_1 said:

The first team players have played at a pretty decent level throughout their careers. They should have had enough put away to cope with the situation the clubs decision has put them in.
 

What can a middle of the championship level player reasonably expect to earn? I’ve genuinely no idea.
Of those released I reckon the only one I could pick out of a lineup is Paul Paton. A Kenny Miller type who has made a packet and was working his way down the leagues would be fine but would these players really be well off?

Edited May 24, 2020 by ribzanelli

[Rudolph Hucker]

The average annual wage in the UK at the moment is around £29K. I read some figures recently saying most first team players in this league would earn between £30K and £40K per annum. Obviously some at Dundee United and maybe Dundee will be on more and all at Alloa and Arbroath will be on less, but if those figures are accurate for the vast majority of the rest of the first team squads then the answer to your question would be no, they would not be well off. They probably are able and prepared to cope with the expected gap between contracts at this time of year, but nobody saw this coming till it was too late to do anything about it so I'd imagine many of those freed could be struggling financially before long if clubs are not offering contracts

[101]

10 hours ago, da_no_1 said:

Because I still can't see why we wouldn't do it if it wasn't without risk. If the rumours are true HMRC might come calling further down the line. We have no overdraft facilities, no sugar daddy and no vision regarding future income apart from the 20k/month lifeline which will probably already be needed for stadium maintenance etc. We're just not in a position to gamble.

That's all assuming the HMRC story is true.

It's not rumours, it's just some football clubs appear to think they can use the scheme in a way the chancellor is unsure of. This risks HMRC deeming it a misuse of public funds and it doesn't take a genius to work out that after this they will be looking to get as much public money back as possible and low hanging fruit will be football clubs because they do press releases confirming their actions.

[101]

32 minutes ago, ribzanelli said:

What can a middle of the championship level player reasonably expect to earn? I’ve genuinely no idea.
Of those released I reckon the only one I could pick out of a lineup is Paul Paton. A Kenny Miller type who has made a packet and was working his way down the leagues would be fine but would these players really be well off?

 

11 minutes ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

The average annual wage in the UK at the moment is around £29K. I read some figures recently saying most first team players in this league would earn between £30K and £40K per annum. Obviously some at Dundee United and maybe Dundee will be on more and all at Alloa and Arbroath will be on less, but if those figures are accurate for the vast majority of the rest of the first team squads then the answer to your question would be no, they would not be well off. They probably are able and prepared to cope with the expected gap between contracts at this time of year, but nobody saw this coming till it was too late to do anything about it so I'd imagine many of those freed could be struggling financially before long if clubs are not offering contracts

These players won't have any more put away than most normal people, however most of the players in the championship employ agents and advisors who should have been all over this for months. You would also imagine in the industry they are in their agents/advisors would recommend insurance of some kind. It's not like a global pandemic has snuck up on us. It's been at the top of the risk register for years.

[Derry Alli]

16 hours ago, Chubbychops said:

Roy McGregor has taken advice  from HMRC and legal advice  on this and has been adivsed not do it.  

Has he said that? 

[Derry Alli]

10 hours ago, da_no_1 said:

If the rumours are true HMRC might come calling further down the line. 

What rumours are these?

[Cowden Cowboy]

23 minutes ago, 101 said:

It's not rumours, it's just some football clubs appear to think they can use the scheme in a way the chancellor is unsure of. This risks HMRC deeming it a misuse of public funds and it doesn't take a genius to work out that after this they will be looking to get as much public money back as possible and low hanging fruit will be football clubs because they do press releases confirming their actions.

It’s unlikely to be challenged by HMRC who will have a lot more on their plate and more serious cases to deal with - again given likely delay in restarting football and uncertainty re player situation and the state of the game keeping players on for a month or two before finally deciding on whether they should be retained isn’t very contentious.  But if you have made definitive decisions re who you will keep or not for next season whenever it is then there is more of a moral question.  

[HoBNob]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Alli said:

Has he said that? 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ross-county-chairman-roy-macgregor-22074588.amp

Explains it in more depth than what we did, but it in turn makes allot of sense. 

If Ross County with their sugar daddy are reckoning there could be financial implications down the line, then I can fully understand why our board haven't risked it. 

[da_no_1]

What rumours are these?

I'll repeat my point again. I'm not talking about long term. I'm talking about the difference between releasing players now and offering players two 1 month contracts to ride them over whilst furlough scheme is in it's current guise. If a player (or employee) doesn't have enough put by to cope with that spell without wages (again not long term - no other club has offered long deals to players they don't want to keep as a goodwill gesture) then that's no-ones fault but their own.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.

I'm not criticising any club for any decisions they might make at the moment.

[Derry Alli]

6 minutes ago, Grant228 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ross-county-chairman-roy-macgregor-22074588.amp

Explains it in more depth than what we did, but it in turn makes allot of sense. 

If Ross County with their sugar daddy are reckoning there could be financial implications down the line, then I can fully understand why our board haven't risked it. 

He's had advice from HMRC but doesn't say what that advice was, nor what would happen but if there was a government scheme available to help the players he'd use that. 

There is a government scheme available. His nonsense about people getting paid whilst others sit at home is bullshit too, that is literally happening country wide. 

Considering, as you point out, he pumps millions into the club and then writes it off on a yearly basis then taking this course of action and branding an extra month's furlough 'dishonest' is fucking laughable. 

[HoBNob]

Just now, Mr. Alli said:

He's had advice from HMRC but doesn't say what that advice was, 

Well going by the fact he won't be keeping players on furlough just to release them, having spoken to HMRC, it's reasonably easy to ascertain that he was told not too. 

[Guest Axle Grease]

Dunfermline have access to half a dozen-ish people who can advise on financial related matters. They have probably advised that their club would be sure to hit with payback post Covid-19. 

[Derry Alli]

1 minute ago, Grant228 said:

Well going by the fact he won't be keeping players on furlough just to release them, having spoken to HMRC, it's reasonably easy to ascertain that he was told not too. 

There are companies paying peoples wages who will never do anothers day work for them. 

[HoBNob]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Alli said:

There are companies paying peoples wages who will never do anothers day work for them. 

Just because lots of people do something, doesn't make it right. 

[Derry Alli]

Just now, Grant228 said:

Just because lots of people do something, doesn't make it right. 

It does make it right if they're doing it because it is exactly why the scheme was set up though. 

If you're happy your club are going down this route then fair enough. I wouldn't be taking some contradictory nonsense off an old duffer who regularly fucked his employees over his whole business life as a stance to align myself with, personally. 

[Homer Thompson]

Well going by the fact he won't be keeping players on furlough just to release them, having spoken to HMRC, it's reasonably easy to ascertain that he was told not too. 

Except, if you read the rest of the article, he makes it clear that he didn't get specific advice from the HMRC.