Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[AberdeenBud]

There are 3 separate stages to this train wreck with 3 separate drivers;

(1) Murray, Initially bold but successful followed by arrogant and reckless and eventually forced to jump off.

(2) The Bank, sensible and prudent with zero interest in running a club once they had a route to get their money.

(3) Whyte, criminally reckless, threw the brakes away and drove the train into a wall.

Aye, would agree with that actually, my initial post was probably too simplistic in apportioning blame. Although you could still argue the degree to which each of these stages were to blame for the final crash.

Edited May 19, 2014 by AberdeenBud

[Ken Fitlike]

again, when did the fans have any say on how the club (company?) is run?

is there any evidence that the fans pushed the club (company?) to the brink through expectation and demands while david murray was in charge?

surely if the club had shown clarity and transparency when the problems first became apparent during dm's time the majority although reluctant would have accepted it had cuts been had to be made to ensure the club came through a difficult time(. )

all you are doing is pressuming what rangers fans think (intoand making out what the fans thought had any influence on how the club was run (into the ground)

[aDONisSheep]

The EBT liability was in simple terms a disputed tax bill, in the end it was disputed successfully, the remaining debt would have been manageable if restructured correctly.

Hi Tedi. The figures I quoted were the retained (cumulative) P&L for the year ended 30th June 2010. They didn't include any potential liabilities or subsequent losses that would have been associated with the EBTs.

The only reference to anything EBT-esque was in the Finance Directors Report;

"On the basis of expert tax advice, the Club is defending a query raised by HMRC into the operation of the Murray Group Management Limited Remuneration Trust, established to provide incentives to certain employees and other service providers. This is part of an ongoing tax enquiry scheduled to be heard by a tax tribunal before the end of the year. It would therefore be inappropriate to comment further on matters pending the outcome of this tribunal."

Nothing was set aside under liabilites to cover potential exposure to losing the case.

Yours

aDONis

Edited May 19, 2014 by aDONisSheep

[professor challenger]

As things stand at the moment I am not going back. I am certainly not going back to Ibrox on a regular basis or anything like it. I am absolutely disgusted with those who have renewed and tbh i don't want to share the same stadium as them. They are welcome to the club. I know one supporter who renewed and keeps saying it doesn't matter if Green and Whyte make money or get the stadium because if it wasn't for them there would be no Rangers.

I may go to the odd away game but right now i just feel empty and completely fed up with the whole sorry fiasco. Was talking about it earlier to a well known Rangers supporter who like me hasn't missed a game at Ibrox in years..Once i have missed that first one and broken the run it will be much easier to find other things to fill my time.

When this has all played out i cant see it really changing the way i feel. It will never be the same again...I always felt part of the support and part of the 'Rangers Family' but no more. I ll miss it of course to start with but i am sure i ll carry on with my life regardless. My missus is about to graduate as a Midwife and i had said i ll move anywhere as long as it is no further than two hours drive from Ibrox..I think it is safe to say we can move anywhere in the country now..I believe North Yorkshire is nice this time of year.

No knee jerk reaction...Wont be changing my mind...Just a life long Rangers supporter who has been completely worn down by the whole sorry saga.

Considered Firhill?

Glasgow' s oldest professional club and we accept all major credit cards.

Edited May 19, 2014 by professor challenger

[ribzanelli]

surely if the club had shown clarity and transparency when the problems first became apparent during dm's time the majority although reluctant would have accepted it had cuts been had to be made to ensure the club came through a difficult time.

If this is true then why are so many backing a man with what 40odd tax convictions whose business plan is basically 'for every fiver Celtic spend I'll spend a tenner of my kids inheritance'?

[bennett]

Afraid not.

I think the reaction to the kind of cuts necessary would have been so vitriolic it was basically not an option on the table.

Your fans can't even accept a sensible, sustainable approach to spending now despite being liquidated, what the hell makes you think they would have 3 years ago.

Lloyds and Minty may have been the main drivers of the train, but Whyte was brought in to do a job, a job which he did. Minty's ego wouldn't accept him being the man who took Rangers into admin so someone else who didn't care was brought in for the final few stops before the train ground to a halt.

If Rangers were on the road to recovery why did they sell for a pound? Because they were already completely fucked at that stage.

It wasn't just a pound (a common misconception) it was a token £1 plus £18m to Lloyds and the small tax case.

Rangers were far from F**ked, the debt was reduced to under £18m and decreasing, at current rates would have been cleared in around 3 years (thats a guess)

The problem wasn't Rangers debt but MIH's debt to Lloyds, that was the problem and Rangers were caught in the crossfire.

As for your other question regarding who is most to blame - Whyte or Murray. Thats a bit like the chicken and the egg syaing but i'd say Murray.

[bennett]

Just figured out he's been replying to me, 'innocent creditors' was the clue in the post you quoted, when I've told him he's on ignore. Not even addressed him, the obsessive neep.

Not sure why Bennett witters on .. Had Ally secured CL football .. Whyte may well have staggered on and turned it around.

Bennett obviously buys into the "Murray" not doing due diligence and was duped. Never mind that he had his pet journos selling Whyte to the hordes.

Murray knew well fine how the buyout was funded, he simply didn't care. He'd been trying to offload the club since 2006.

You couldn't make it up.

Bloody obsessive .....

[bennett]

Even the debt to Lloyds could have restructured without the EBT liability, it was this that made us untouchable to anyone else but the likes of CW.

It was not Murray's choice to sell for a £1 it was the banks who could have pulled the plug on everything Murray had, but I do not blame the Bank, I blame Murray for taking the risks with EBT`s in the 1st place.

If it was just the Rangers debt i really don't think there would have as much pressure from the bank but MIH's debt was around £700 - 800m (if i remember correctly) and they were taking no prisoners.

Did Muray not offer HMRC a settlement regarding the EBT's?

[aDONisSheep]

I do not know what difference this makes to the position going forward though?

Debt was down to £14M

The reason I mention EBT is this what was always hanging over the club so people were suggesting that the £14M debt figure was not real, when in fact at that point it was very real.

No problem with what you've said, and I don't dispute the bank debt figure (although I suspect that bank debt was swapped with not paying HMRC or Ticketus Debt).

I haven't seen the accounts to 30 Jun 2011, so can't tell if Craig 'Nookie' Whyte was fast and loose in those last months.

I was merely pointing out that Murray had overseen a period when DeadRangers should have been at their most prosperous, but instead he racked up a load of losses (£135.8m as I said) and exposed DeadRangers to a potentially massive Tax liability on top of that!

Nookie subsequently made a ricket of what he was handed, and so it flows via Chuckles to Margherita et al.

I suspect that had Moonbeams not been 'duped' (stop laughing at the back). Finances were so precarious that any failure in CL would have been fatal, with or without Nookie at the helm.

Still, you've gotta larf! (At least I do ).

Yours

aDONis

Edited May 19, 2014 by aDONisSheep

[youngsy]

Even the debt to Lloyds could have restructured without the EBT liability, it was this that made us untouchable to anyone else but the likes of CW.

It was not Murray's choice to sell for a £1 it was the banks who could have pulled the plug on everything Murray had, but I do not blame the Bank, I blame Murray for taking the risks with EBT`s in the 1st place.

Leaving aside the EBT potential, the overall debt was just over £56 million, if Whyte hadn't been fraudulent and refused to pay PAYE & N.I then with the EBT case going the way of the PLC a CVA could have been structured, the fact that Whyte stiffed HMRC was the reason for HMRC to refuse any CVA. Certainly Murrays lack of fiscal prudence in the early to mid 2000s was the catylyst for the financial problems but at the end of the day, Whyte was solely responsible for the liquidation of the PLC.

[youngsy]

If it was just the Rangers debt i really don't think there would have as much pressure from the bank but MIH's debt was around £700 - 800m (if i remember correctly) and they were taking no prisoners.

Did Muray not offer HMRC a settlement regarding the EBT's?

He offered £10 million as a settlement without any financial irregularity being applied to the PLC.

[p&b is a disgrace]

FFS - I sincerely hope that the forum for the best league in the UK isn't hijacked with this pish next season

Mods please close this thread now

[youngsy]

HMRC are still appealing this. A CVA was never on the cards. As for the tribunal .. the decision is a joke, possible borne out of the fact that Rangers were dead, it wouldn't be paid anyway and the judges imagined HMRC would simply drop it.

They haven't and your assumption a CVA would have been agreed is flawed ..

HMRC are using this to set a precedent in law ... hence the appeal.

There are too many schemes operating to simply let it slide.

Whether you think the EBT result is a joke is neither here nor there, you're opinion on the verdict isn't in any way relevant. The FTT found for the PLC, that is irrefutable. As for any CVA being accepted or not, leaving aside the EBT potential, if Whyte hadn't withheld PAYE from HMRC there is a fair chance a CVA would have been accepted, the fact that Whyte fraudulently withheld such a sum was the major factor in HMRC pushing for liquidation of the PLC.

[No8.]

FFS - I sincerely hope that the forum for the best league in the UK isn't hijacked with this pish next season

Mods please close this thread now

I don't understand why you bother reading it if you are not interested in it or are worried it will pollute your forum. It will no doubt be in a sub forum again so there should be no reason for you to accidentally stumble across it

[Henrik's tongue]

FFS - I sincerely hope that the forum for the best league in the UK isn't hijacked with this pish next season

Mods please close this thread now

Forced in at gunpoint were you?

[p&b is a disgrace]

I occasionally look - in the hope there might be something which is actually related to the title of the topic. Unfortunately it's just more of the same irrelevant pish being spouted by a small collection of p&bs worst ever posters.

99% of these posts can be - and should be - done by IM. Very little of it is actually relevant. Most of it is just a waste of server space.

[No8.]

Olive branch time... Excellent post.

I really do feel sympathy for you, No. 8. It's a shame that its taken something like this for you to have to take stock, but I do feel for you.

North Yorkshire? Good choice, but a bit short of entertainment. If you are used to a city kind of vibe I reckon you'd prefer the South or West Ridings. Also probably better if you wanted to carry on with the Taxi job. Leeds/Bradford/Wakefield can be OK, but my god it's built-up over the years. Sheffield/Rotherham/Barnsley would give you the best of both worlds, with plenty of facilities (gig venues, leisure facilities, football clubs, etc.) and easy access to loads of lovely countryside. You can't get much further from the coast, mind.

The East Riding is pretty much banjo country, except for the latest City of Culture. Hull's got quite a lot going for it, mind, and you seem to get a fair old discount when buying property with a HU postcode - which covers some much nicer areas. Not as many local football clubs, mind, with either the KC or a trip over the bridge being your only real options. (Grimsby don't play in Grimsby, btw.)

Anyhoo, get yourself down to God's County and live a little. There's moors, peaks and all sorts within a short drive from anywhere, as I believe you like the outdoors. As for the Football?Just check out the teams - especially in the second and third tiers of the league - every weekend is derby day.

I used to go to Yorkshire quite often. I like the area around Whitby and Filey although i hated Bridlington and not so keen on Scarborough. Another place i went to was Pickering and that surrounding area and some wee village called Constable Burton. Yep i had great times in Yorkshire.

Funnily enough we got some good news today. She has the chance to go to Argyll and our place of choice would be Lochgilphead. Property prices are decent and we know the area well as we camp/holiday at a small village called Tayvallich on Loch Sween on a regular basis. Anybody looking for a getaway from it all weekend i recommend they google it. I also know they are in dire need of a taxi driver or two

[Milo]

I occasionally look - in the hope there might be something which is actually related to the title of the topic. Unfortunately it's just more of the same irrelevant pish being spouted by a small collection of p&bs worst ever posters.

99% of these posts can be - and should be - done by IM. Very little of it is actually relevant. Most of it is just a waste of server space.

B.R.A.L.T. for this pish!!!.........................................................Errrrr!?

[Henrik's tongue]

I occasionally look.

Well don't. It's really that simple.

[No8.]

I occasionally look - in the hope there might be something which is actually related to the title of the topic. Unfortunately it's just more of the same irrelevant pish being spouted by a small collection of p&bs worst ever posters.

Very little of it is actually relevant. Most of it is just a waste of server space.

Well done on adding more irrelevant pish and waste of server space...Don't let the door hit you on the arse