Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[Happy Buddie]

No, sure, I see that. And I entirely understand why it's right and proper that the rules are applied to the legal entity. No problem there.

Nonetheless, if a fresh entity exists that calls itself Rangers, and is still considered to be Rangers by everyone who made up that looser definition of the 'club' as it existed before then, as far as I'm concerned, it'll still be Rangers.

The fans who go to Ibrox, to support the home team, will continue to call them Rangers and will still assert that it's a continuation of the club founded in 1872. A few will say that, but deep down, accept that it's a phoenix.

A few of the other clubs' supporters might accept that , in spirit, it's the same club, particularly if the Orcs continue with their sectarian, bigoted bile.

But, even so, however it pans out, us diddies will insist that they're NOT Rangers any more, and will rip the pish out of them at every available opportunity.

[Wings Over Scotland]

I'd be very surprised if the SFA don't refer you to the definition quoted earlier in the thread, that the term "member" is used loosely and can define either a full member alone or a full member and associate member depending on how the SFA choose to interpret their own laws. Which again, is entirely the point.

1. That wasn't a "definition", it was an interpretation, and one I believe to be entirely mistaken.

2. We're talking about the rules of the SFL here, not the SFA. The SFA has indeed tried very hard to make Rangers a special case, but there is as yet no evidence for the SFL doing so.

[welshbairn]

I think you'll find that is bollocks. Wimbledon FC became MK Dons after the owner decided to relocate them to Milton Keynes. AFC Wimbledon was set up by the fans in protest to this move and is a totally separate entity to Wimbledon FC. Bit like FC United of Manchester after the Glaziers took over Manchester United.

At its AGM on 5 June 2006, the FSF again considered a motion[8] proposed by the FSF Council to allow MK Dons Supporters Association membership if the honours and trophies of Wimbledon F.C. were given to the London Borough of Merton. In October 2006, agreement[9] was reached between the club, the MK Dons Supporters Association, the Wimbledon Independent Supporters Association and the Football Supporters Federation. The replica of the FA Cup plus all club patrimony gathered under the name of Wimbledon F.C. would be returned to the London Borough of Merton. Ownership of trademarks and website domain names related to Wimbledon F.C. would also be transferred to the Borough. The Borough subsequently transferred all trademarks to AFC Wimbledon. As part of the same deal it was agreed that any reference made to Milton Keynes Dons F.C. should refer only to events subsequent to 7 August 2004 (the date of the first League game of Milton Keynes Dons F.C.).

[Granny Danger]

The fans who go to Ibrox, to support the home team, will continue to call them Rangers and will still assert that it's a continuation of the club founded in 1872. A few will say that, but deep down, accept that it's a phoenix.

A few of the other clubs' supporters might accept that , in spirit, it's the same club, particularly if the Orcs continue with their sectarian, bigoted bile.

But, even so, however it pans out, us diddies will insist that they're NOT Rangers any more, and will rip the pish out of them at every available opportunity.

That's a mythical bird. Just like Magee's wife!

[Colin M]

And it's all over and done with. Surely?

I think the biggest issue with accepting this line though, is that assuming guilt over the EBT/registration/undisclosed payment saga, a continuity-happy Rangers almost certainly should not be playing football at all this season as suspension would seem a minimum punishment for such misdemeanours, and should consider themselves lucky to ever be allowed to play football under the SFA umbrella again.

Which makes the current plan to find a way to "let them play" while also placating everyone else as much as possible via sanctions hard to stomach.

[Gaspode]

So with the news the Beattie and Black are training with the Orcs, anyone fancy a wee bet on Craig Levein becoming the first international manager to pick a striker from the lowest division available?

[Savage Henry]

1. That wasn't a "definition", it was an interpretation, and one I believe to be entirely mistaken.

2. We're talking about the rules of the SFL here, not the SFA. The SFA has indeed tried very hard to make Rangers a special case, but there is as yet no evidence for the SFL doing so.

With respect, that's neither here nor there. The vagaries of the legal system in this very specific case are intentional.

As to your second point, fair enough. In which case I return to one of my previous posts, Rangers will start off in the third division on the same financial footing as everyone else and with the proviso that guilt in the Dual Contracts scheme will result in further punishment.

[Wings Over Scotland]

So, TV rights for cup games can be sold by Newco then if this is only applicable for league competitions.

That would be my interpretation, yes, consistent with various other rules eg:

71.6 For the avoidance of doubt all income derived from the League Cup and

Challenge Cup Competitions whether by way of sponsorship, broadcasting

or otherwise will be administered separately by the Board in accordance

with the League Cup Competition Rules and the League Challenge Cup

Competition Rules.

and with the fact that an arrangement has already been made to broadcast Sevco's 1st-round match vs Brechin in the Challenge Cup.

(Views pending examination of the LCCR and the LCCCR, of course. Anyhoo, 26C and clear blue skies down here, I'm off for a stroll.)

Edited July 24, 2012 by Wings Over Scotland

[H_B]

Which makes the current plan to find a way to "let them play" while also placating everyone else as much as possible via sanctions hard to stomach.

Indeed. And the negotiations over the punishments stick in the craw too.

[Granny Danger]

So with the news the Beattie and Black are training with the Orcs, anyone fancy a wee bet on Craig Levein becoming the first international manager to pick a striker from the lowest division available?

Craig Levein? A striker?

[Colin M]

Indeed. And the negotiations over the punishments stick in the craw too.

Can only assume that the SFA know that despite all the bluster, trying to apply the newco punishments for the misdemeanours of oldco would be open to legal challange - so to have them contractually agree to it allows them to carry on. Because otherwise as you suggest, there should be no negotiation, they should either be admitted or not, and if they are, the appropriate punishments should be applied (assuming due process is followed to determine their "guilt", of course).

Scottish Football IS a collective endeavour, but we have learned that for many of the key people involved, that extends to treating it as a partly pre-defined format where we have teams that win and others who seem to merely participate to facilitate those winners. It feels like no matter how much fans have achieved so far, the game here is going to be tainted forever unless we can removed the Old Firm from it entirely.

[Savage Henry]

I think the biggest issue with accepting this line though, is that assuming guilt over the EBT/registration/undisclosed payment saga, a continuity-happy Rangers almost certainly should not be playing football at all this season as suspension would seem a minimum punishment for such misdemeanours, and should consider themselves lucky to ever be allowed to play football under the SFA umbrella again.

Which makes the current plan to find a way to "let them play" while also placating everyone else as much as possible via sanctions hard to stomach.

Indeed. And the negotiations over the punishments stick in the craw too.

True. But given the stage we have reached, I don't think there's any avoiding it. I have no idea what the punitive response to the EBT nonsense is or should be, but given that it doubles with the ostensibly unrelated financial problems and the fact that nobody really wants to kill Rangers FC for what they've done, it's hard not to make a special case here. It doesn't sit well at all, but it is what it is.

[Yoss]

The fans who go to Ibrox, to support the home team, will continue to call them Rangers and will still assert that it's a continuation of the club founded in 1872. A few will say that, but deep down, accept that it's a phoenix.

A few of the other clubs' supporters might accept that , in spirit, it's the same club, particularly if the Orcs continue with their sectarian, bigoted bile.

But, even so, however it pans out, us diddies will insist that they're NOT Rangers any more, and will rip the pish out of them at every available opportunity.

Yeah, point taken. Nothing I've said should be taken as affecting my statutory rights to take the piss out of anyone in any way it pleases me.

[strichener]

Craig Levein? A striker?

More pertinent would be

Craig Levein? A Manager?

[weirdcal]

So with the news the Beattie and Black are training with the Orcs, anyone fancy a wee bet on Craig Levein becoming the first international manager to pick a striker from the lowest division available?

how can they afford them if hearts cant ??

so much for furthering your career though.. SPL ? na, 1st ? na, 2nd? na 3rd ? yeah, thats good. scotlands FOURTH tier is my level..

[H_B]

It feels like no matter how much fans have achieved so far, the game here is going to be tainted forever unless we can removed the Old Firm from it entirely.

Yeah, it's interesting when you compare it to the NFL, where parity of competors is seen as desirable, rather than here, where collecting as much income and "glory" amongst an elite two is absolutely the primary duty of all, including the administrators.

Indeed, in baseball, teams are effectively taxed for exceeding a salary cap, with the tax going to the other clubs. That's a great idea.

The structure of the professional game is all wrong - it's not a collection of equals, which isn't exactly news, but worse than that it doesn't even pretend to be. All other clubs are expendable, even Hearts or Aberdeen. Celtic and Rangers will not be allowed to ever die, no matter what crimes they commit and how much disrespect they show the game and the other competitors.

[DomDom]

Can someone find out if Wings Over Scotland is actually an alias of Beyemistic? He's doing that "reply to posts you think you have a chance with and ignore the rest" approach.

[strichener]

Yeah, it's interesting when you compare it to the NFL, where parity of competors is seen as desirable, rather than here, where collecting as much income and "glory" amongst an elite two is absolutely the primary duty of all, including the administrators.

Indeed, in baseball, teams are effectively taxed for exceeding a salary cap, with the tax going to the other clubs. That's a great idea.

The structure of the professional game is all wrong - it's not a collection of equals, which isn't exactly news, but worse than that it doesn't even pretend to be. All other clubs are expendable, even Hearts or Aberdeen. Celtic and Rangers will not be allowed to ever die, no matter what crimes they commit and how much disrespect they show the game and the other competitors.

I am a big fan of American Football and agree that the principle of "giving the best to the worst in the hope of levelling the playing field" is a great concept. Hard to get it working in football though as the NFL is the biggest gig in town and thereby attracts all the best players from college no way could Scottish Football compete and the labour laws in Europe wouldn't allow the type of agreement that the NFL and players have with the Collective Bargaining. Pity as I would like to see the convergence of the teams on a financial and ability level.

[Gaspode]

Craig Levein? A striker?

Good point!

[Colin M]

True. But given the stage we have reached, I don't think there's any avoiding it. I have no idea what the punitive response to the EBT nonsense is or should be, but given that it doubles with the ostensibly unrelated financial problems and the fact that nobody really wants to kill Rangers FC for what they've done, it's hard not to make a special case here. It doesn't sit well at all, but it is what it is.

This is where I disagree - if the consequences of their actions should result in "the killing of Rangers FC" then that is what I want to happen. It simply should not be acceptable that there are some clubs (or in this case, one club) who we cannot apply the rules to. If that is the case, then the game is rigged from the start.

However - I think that as serious as their misdemeanours are, relegation and stripping of titles would have been a sufficient punishment for me. By that token, I will be content enough if they are allowed to get on with it, so long as there is closure given if they are proven to be guilty.

I don't think it needs to be treated as a special case - it's that the default position is that we need to find a way to let them play before determining punishments that is a problem. The outcome of the EBT investigation was deliberately shelved (perhaps in the hope it would all go away on its own) and that was ridiculous. I understand why the SFA feel they have to act in a certain way now, but it's really only because they've made a monstrous fuckup of it all in the first place.