AsimButtHitsASix Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I like this game. You turn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Sergio Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 You are quick to assume what I meant by hard times. Why did you put the question to me, but exclude the last 4-5 months? It was 4-5 months wasn't it? Seeing your club in the gutter obviously isn't going to be the nicest thing, even if most of your fans are glory hunters who will probably jump ship to another 'successful' team quicker than Mussolini switched his allegiances. No Celtic or Rangers supporter has ever suffered footballing "bad times" on the pitch. Any 'fan' who says otherwise is clearly living on another planet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers lad Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Can you explain to me what disappointing times you have had in your life as a Hearts fan? Like most fans out side the OF there will to many to list. As some other have said i think you have missed to point yes there are good Rangers fans and i feel sorry for them its not their fault but they are far out numbered by the arrogant and awful ones who believe they have a given right to win everything, that the rest of the 40 clubs are pointless other to produce cheap players for the OF, that spew their bigoted bile at others and in our case threaten our club and board for daring to punish them for something they did. This is Scottish footballs chance to change things for the better surely even as a Rangers fan you must be bored of the pointless 2 horse race that has left us a joke around Europe. That is why Rangers must start in Division 3 allowing them to join the SFL1/SPL is a joke and it will be business as normal in a year and nothing will have changed and if nothing is going to change and we return to the OF strangle hold despite years of cheating then what is the point of the 40 teams outside the OF they might as well fold. That is why people are turning on their clubs and would rather not go back than accept them voting in a club that has no history, no records, no players purely because it carries the name Rangers. no other team outside the OF would ask let alone expect to start anywhere but the bottom, where are Gretna, Clydebank and Third Lanark? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Correction. Airdrie United were asked and were told no. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wokcomble Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) Not sure about Raith. That Hutton guy seems to be sitting on the fence.... If, and heaven forbid, 'newco' do end up in the first division all the clubs should conspire to lose all their games to say, for talkings sake, Raith Rovers, in order to ensure Raith top the division and that 'newco' don't win the league. Ach, they'd change the rules anyway to manufacture newco into the SPL. Edited July 4, 2012 by Wokcomble 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Just occurred to me that the SFL should refuse to do anything until the SPL/SFA have actually dealt with the Oldco. It's their bloody problem, after all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers lad Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Correction. Airdrie United were asked and were told no. they asked to join SFL3 though or am i wrong? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paquis Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) The photos are not very good to be fair. Maybe this is more telling: the official SPL attendances from last season: just for information: Attendance (Average) Team Average Attendance and v Rangers Celtic 50904 58.658 & 58546 Rangers 46324 Hearts 13381 15.495 & 14.842 Hibernian 9909 11.380 Aberdeen 9297 15.468 Dundee Utd 7482 10.156 & 9.464 Motherwell 5946 10.092 & 9.063 Kilmarnock 5537 9.506 Dunfermline 4799 7.577 & 7.464 St Mirren 4493 6.711 St Johnstone 4170 6.459, 6.577 & 6.459 Inverness CT 4023 6.623 & 6.416 "In the event that Rangers had to apply for admission to the third division, the withdrawal of the current TV deals would put three clubs - St Mirren, Kilmarnock and Motherwell - in immediate peril, with Dundee United also vulnerable. The St Mirren chairman, Stewart Gilmour, on Mnight told a meeting of the club's shareholders and season-ticket holders that if the SPL TV contracts are annulled the Paisley side would probably be the next to suffer insolvency. "In that circumstance there is every likelihood that St Mirren will be administration by the end of September," he said" Edited July 4, 2012 by Paquis -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squidger Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I still think this is posturing that has to be gone through for the process of putting Sevco in the third division. Its mucky and it has many headlines for the gutter press, but in reality is this going to end any other way? I could have my head in the sand, but everyone is just covering their own arse and making sure that all options have been given a fair hearing before the inevitable happens. Without this there will always be a feeling of 'hard done by' by the Rangers2012 fans and chances for Green ( his legal team ) to attempt some sort of lawsuit about witch hunts etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballymoneyyin Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Seeing your club in the gutter obviously isn't going to be the nicest thing, even if most of your fans are glory hunters who will probably jump ship to another 'successful' team quicker than Mussolini switched his allegiances. No Celtic or Rangers supporter has ever suffered footballing "bad times" on the pitch. Any 'fan' who says otherwise is clearly living on another planet. Right so now you are making reference to other members of the Rangers support, despite me saying previously in the last page that I intact won't be jumping ship. What on earth are you doing that? I can't answer for them. And again you are moving the goalposts, First it was bad times, now its footballing bad times, And why have Celtic been brought into it? An early exit from a cup competition happened just last season for me, so I don't know where you are getting that from either. Getting to cup finals and losing is more excruciating as a fan in my book. OK I see what you are getting at. We almost every year win a trophy, but don't dare tell me that there hasn't been bad times (or footballing bad times, whichever you want to stick with) at Ibrox before the recent chain of events. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Rangers games lead to higher than average attendances for most clubs?! Why didn't someone tell us sooner?! Right, that's it folks, we better get them back in pronto. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rangers-newco-scrap-the-dead-parrot-spl-says-raith-chief-turnbull-hutton-1-2390499 Lord Turnbull of Hutton: a prince amongst men. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wokcomble Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) The photos are not very good to be fair. Maybe this is more telling: the official SPL attendances from last season: just for information: Attendance (Average) Team Average Attendance and v Rangers Celtic 50904 58.658 & 58546 Rangers 46324 Hearts 13381 15.495 & 14.842 Hibernian 9909 11.380 Aberdeen 9297 15.468 Dundee Utd 7482 10.156 & 9.464 Motherwell 5946 10.092 & 9.063 Kilmarnock 5537 9.506 Dunfermline 4799 7.577 & 7.464 St Mirren 4493 6.711 St Johnstone 4170 6.459, 6.577 & 6.459 Inverness CT 4023 6.623 & 6.416 "In the event that Rangers had to apply for admission to the third division, the withdrawal of the current TV deals would put three clubs - St Mirren, Kilmarnock and Motherwell - in immediate peril, with Dundee United also vulnerable. The St Mirren chairman, Stewart Gilmour, on Mnight told a meeting of the club's shareholders and season-ticket holders that if the SPL TV contracts are annulled the Paisley side would probably be the next to suffer insolvency. "In that circumstance there is every likelihood that St Mirren will be administration by the end of September," he said" Don't know what he's worried about - go for liquidation - form a newco - apply for division one - problem sorted ps - his quote says "IF the SPL TV contracts are annulled" - yet another big IF - doesn't anybody speak to Sky ? Edited July 4, 2012 by Wokcomble 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 the official SPL attendances from last season: What you seem to forget is that this is at best 2 games, at worst 1 game for St Mirren. Are you and the tedious Barr alias trying to tell us that the club would go bust because of the loss of a couple of thousand people through the gate? If so, it's a fucking miracle the club survived so long in the 1st division. The St Mirren chairman, Stewart Gilmour, on Mnight told a meeting of the club's shareholders and season-ticket holders that if the SPL TV contracts are annulled the Paisley side would probably be the next to suffer insolvency. "In that circumstance there is every likelihood that St Mirren will be administration by the end of September," he said" I call shit on this. Provide a source and the context. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Algorithms Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 If, and heaven forbid, 'newco' do end up in the first division all the clubs should conspire to lose all their games to say, for talkings sake, Raith Rovers, in order to ensure Raith top the division and that 'newco' don't win the league. Ach, they'd change the rules anyway to manufacture newco into the SPL. Even midway through our title race season I maintained the only appealing side to SPL was financial, and that would require us to stay up a few seasons. A corrupt league filled with nothing but self preservation. Some excellent fans, but sadly it has been ruined by greedy chairmen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 In fact, and in reference to my previous post, I'll post this which is taken from B&WA, the source can be found here... http://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/off-the-park-news-archive/1811-report-from-fans-meeting Before I post it verbatim, something I don't like doing but it seems fair considering the current question over the clubs position. Interestingly no mention of the "in administration by September" bollocks. Around 350-400 St.Mirren fans gathered at St.Mirren Park this evening to hear from chairman Stewart Gilmour on the situation facing the club, and Scottish Football as a whole, with regard the thorny issue of NewCo.Stewart talked for around 15-20 minutes before inviting questions from those who were there. Here is a (hopefully accurate) summary of what was said for the benefit of those that couldn't make it. The board completely understand the mood amongst the supporters that maintaining sporting integrity is of paramount importance in any decision that is taken by the football club. The board are Saints fans too but they want to ensure that any decision taken by the club is the one that is most favourable to St.Mirren Football Club and thus not necessarily the one that most punishes Rangers Football Club. This theme came across throughout the night, the board are very keen to look only at what is best for St.Mirren and the game as a whole rather than just seeking to maximise the punishment issued to the guilty party. The board are very frustrated that at a time when St.Mirren FC is in its best health on and off the park in 20 years that it should be left facing a no win situation due entirely to events completely out with its control i.e.; the poor management of Rangers through previous owners. Stewart outlined three potential outcomes, each of which has variables surrounding it relating to St.Mirren FC. Scenario 1; Rangers return to SPL with some heavy sanctions This is what will be voted on tomorrow at the SPL meeting, but it is possible that the vote itself may not even take place tomorrow with SG not really knowing what to expect. Rangers returning to the SPL would have a zero impact on commercial sponsors so would not impact St.Mirren financially, but it is not a palatable option given that sporting integrity would be completely undermined. Sanctions would potentially include a points penalty, a re-adoption of the transfer embargo (expectation in football circles is that Rangers will drop their appeal on that charge and accept the original embargo) and a dropping of the 11-1 major vote structure which in turn will lead to a change to the distribution model of prize money. Although this option would be the "best" financially for St.Mirren in terms of central sponsorship money there is a real threat of many season ticket holders walking away from the club (the club is currently 300 season tickets down on this time last year as it is) and with the sporting integrity completely undermined it is still the boards view that they must vote NO to this proposal. Scenario 2; Rangers return to SFL 1 This option is out with St.Mirrens power to influence, other than by contributing to a NO vote to option 1. This would be up to the SFL clubs to vote on and given the current "package" that has been offered to them (£1m would equate to approx £35k per team in division 1 sliding down to around £25k in the SFL 3) in return for effectively giving up the automatic promotion place next season (assuming Rangers would win SFL 1) and adding in play-offs the board do not think this is likely to get the necessary support from the SFL clubs. St.Mirren did not know anything about the document that was sent to SFL clubs last week, they did not contribute anything to it at SPL level and know of no other club in the SPL who did. The document was signed by David Longmuir of the SFL. Needless to say it was not well received in any quarter. Rangers coming in to division 1 would potentially (but not certainly) minimise the impact of commercial sponsors reducing investment in Scottish Football. It was estimated that this could potentially cost St.Mirren around £200k in lost revenue but that would be potentially offset by the improved distribution of prize money in the SPL brought about by the dissolving of the 11-1 voting structure which would be replaced by a 9-3. St.Mirren could deal with a loss of this size, it would affect the playing squad (no new players) so would be painful, but it could be dealt with without serious damage to the fabric of the club. SG talked about how the SFL clubs could really negotiate hard on Ranges coming in to SFL 1 and that the St.Mirren board hoped this could include a re-organisation of the top flight to grow the number of clubs. The model he discussed involved 3 up and 1 down next season, bringing the SPL to 14 clubs who would play a 6/8 split which would potentially give Sky their 4 old firm games for season 2013-2014 in the last year of their current contract (assuming Rangers won promotion next season and finished top six the next which clearly can't be guaranteed). The following year would again see 3 clubs promoted and 1 relegated to make a top flight league of 16. The ins and outs of how that 16 would be constructed would still need to be worked on but in essence it would involve play offs at the top and bottom of the league and giving up a Europa slot as incentive to the clubs in the middle of the league. Below the second tier would be a pyramid of potentially regionalised leagues feeding in but SG acknowledged that this would be up to those clubs operating in those leagues to decide what was best for them as a football club and it was out with the scope of tonight's meeting to discuss that in any more detail. SG said that the model needed refined, but pointed to the Belgian league who have a similar setup. This was an example of how the SFL clubs could bring about positive change for the game from a negative situation. It was noted that this option still reduces the value of sporting integrity and so was still unpalatable but less so in the boards opinion than a straight re-introduction to the SPL 1 would be. Scenario 3; Rangers return to SFL 3 If the SFL clubs voted against allowing Rangers into SFL 1, and the SPL clubs voted against allowing re-introduction to the SPL then the only other option open to the NewCo in Scotland is to apply for what would be a vacancy in SFL 3. This is the option most favoured by the fans, which the board acknowledge, and in a perfect world this is what would happen. The main sticking point is the situation with regard the SPL central sponsors. There are 14 or so of these who contribute between them around £17m of money into the Scottish game. The SPL has met with all of these organisations and discussed the possibility of Rangers moving to SFL 3. Almost every partner has a clause in their contract that allows them to terminate or re-negotiate based on a scenario of either or both of the old firm clubs leaving the Scottish game. These clauses were put there in good faith as both clubs had previously indicated a wish to play in England or in a European league. Late last weeks the SPL clubs were issued with a report outlining worst and best case scenarios for loss of commercial revenue should Rangers end up in SFL 3. The SPL was not permitting clubs to discuss individual sponsors and their exact positions but some had said they would remain whatever happened and some said they would terminate, some said they would re-negotiate. The estimated loss to St.Mirren based on the figures in this report would be between £600k and £1.1 in lost revenue based on last year's earnings (St.Mirren finished 9th in the SPL). The club always sets it's annual SPL budget based on a worst case scenario of finishing 11th (relegation clauses are built in to every player's contract across the whole SPL so the reduction in revenue following relegation would be offset by reduced wages) and in that scenario the club would still lose £400k to £800k depending on how negotiations went with the sponsors who had indicated a willingness to negotiate. The board of St.Mirren reckon cost savings of around £275k could be made this season with no new players coming in and heavy redundancies and cut backs across every area of the club. Essentially every area where staff were not under contract would be cut to the bone. This would still leave a large gap and one that the club could not bridge without outside help either from sponsors, player sales, fans, benefactors, the board or anyone else who would be willing to help. It would be a "financial disaster" for the club and one that it could take years to recover from. SG warned that the club could even face Administration in these circumstances and that 5 other SPL clubs would almost certainly be in the same boat. SG acknowledged that none of the above scenarios were positive, and that there would be unhappy supporters no matter what happened. The board explained that it had prepared in advance for this season, due to SPL safety having been all but secured earlier than usual players were re-signed on new contracts and a couple of players signed on PCA's. This meant that the club had a full first team squad that are all under contract for the coming season and so it was not simply a case of "cutting cloth to suit our means". If the financial meltdown was 12 months away then the club would be able to let quality players leave under freedom of contract and replace them with cheaper players. The quality of course would suffer but the club would survive. The issue right here and right now is that the club have budgeted for the revenues staying the same so this is why we would be in big trouble if we had such a sudden big drop. Similarly it is not possible to go to the current players and ask them to sacrifice half their salary etc as has happened elsewhere. The players at St.Mirren are not paid huge wages and all have commitments to meet the same as everyone else. The situation is already hurting the club as the drop in season tickets has caused operational problems. Prize money has still to be received from last season and so cash flow is a problem with players all still needing to be paid over the summer. It was basically stated that the option of Rangers moving into SFL 1, together with major reconstruction conditions, was probably the best of a bad bunch of scenarios for St.Mirren Football Club. A show of hands at the end saw half a dozen say they were in favour of Rangers returning straight into the SPL, whilst maybe 60-70% of those there (just guessing) said they were now in favour of the SFL 1 scenario (whilst acknowledging that was not within our power to give) with the remainder still adamant that SFL 3 was the only way. It was an interesting night, and there was certainly a lot less heat that was expected. SG spoke well, the fans contributed well, and the discussions continued long after the final whistle as groups of fans debated what they had heard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paquis Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) What you seem to forget is that this is at best 2 games, at worst 1 game for St Mirren. Are you and the tedious Barr alias trying to tell us that the club would go bust because of the loss of a couple of thousand people through the gate? If so, it's a fucking miracle the club survived so long in the 1st division. I call shit on this. Provide a source and the context. Too lazy to Google?? http://www.telegraph...il-July-12.html Edited July 4, 2012 by Paquis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Too lazy to Google?? Why should I Google it? It's up to you to back up your claims. You should have provided the source in the first place. http://www.telegraph...il-July-12.html The fact that the reporter states the quote was on "Mnight" it does bring into question whether the same reporter was able to garner a valid quote in the first place. Even then, the quote runs utterly contrary to the comments from another director from just a few weeks ago, and even if it has a grain of truth in it, it's assuming the very worst scenario, something that Sky itself has dismissed as happening, in a massively slanted article that once more smacks of pandering to the Sevco I will refer to people actually at that meeting rather than the Telegraph trash reporting thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuoAnLai Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 A thought on timing of league reconstruction, with some assumptions. Firstly, I am assuming most fans of most teams want a larger top league, but don't want reconstruction just to help newco. Secondly, I am assuming that most fans of most diddy teams don't want newco in SFL1 next season. Thirdly, I am assuming most club chairmen want newco in the top league/division (whatever it is called) asap. The only real problem the SPL chairmen have is that newco into SFL3 would keep them out of the top division for too long, so they are pushing for SFL1. What if... Newco join SFL3 for the upcoming season (and probably win promotion). The top two divisions are expanded to 16 teams each for the following season (13/14), which would put a promoted newco into the second tier for 13/14, allowing them a crack a promotion for 14/15. All this sh1te about clubs folding is based on projected income. If banks and sponsors can see a reasonable expectation of increased income in the foreseeable future (2 years) they will be quite happy to continue to lend to/support Scottish football. Is this too close to gerrymandering or is it giving us the structure we want with newco starting at the level that they ought to? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paquis Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Why should I Google it? It's up to you to back up your claims. You should have provided the source in the first place. The fact that the reporter states the quote was on "Mnight" it does bring into question whether the same reporter was able to garner a valid quote in the first place. Even then, the quote runs utterly contrary to the comments from another director from just a few weeks ago, and even if it has a grain of truth in it, it's assuming the very worst scenario, something that Sky itself has dismissed as happening, in a massively slanted article that once more smacks of pandering to the Sevco I will refer to people actually at that meeting rather than the Telegraph trash reporting thanks. So that will be a yes. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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