Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[pansypotterthedirtyrotter]

Apologies if someone has already asked this. What I don't understand is why, if Rangers thought EBTs were legal and above board, they felt they had to keep them quiet and hide them from the SPL/SFA.

Because rangers claim that they weren't part of the players salary, they were 'loans ' apparently.

Still don't know if the administrators have tried to recover any of these 'loans ' yet though.

[GirondistNYC]

1337878515[/url]' post='6268839']

They can be legal and above board in a financial sense but i believe the sfa rules are different and require explicit disclosure. Its a bit like some diet foods being legal but banned by the sports doping authorities.

Three things rather than two:

1) correct fom an accounting perspective

2) legal from a tax compliance perspective

3) in compliance with SFA and other football rules

Bears keep saying that because their accounts disclosed EBTs it's automatically okay regardless of anything else out there. That's simply not true. It's not true it's even a point in their favor unless the footnotes to their financials said "We paid X in compensation to players and staff through EBTs. Such compensation was governed by separate documentation outwith the regular employment contract and could be construed as payment in lieu of wages".

The only way they can even make an argument everything was is disclosed and HMRC is being mean after the fact is if they actually disclosed the key facts relevant to the EBT legality/second registered player contract point, They didn't. It's a bollocks argument.

[7-2]

p.s. We're playing nice now, but if you don't desist forthwith, we'll send Cribbens round with a baseball bat. He's handy, you know.

Pheeeeeeew. Thats ok. Thought you were going to have him sing at us.

[theoriginalhedge]

I don't think any of us who post regularly on here and are reasonably intelligent chaps think for one minute that any SPL club should come out and say 'NO to Newco'. They'd obviously need 24hr protection at their ground, and the chairman of a club who said that would merely be in line for threats, abuse, dodgy e-mails... you name it.

Motherwell seem to have sat on the fence here, but that's exactly what they should be doing. This isn't the time to come out and say NO to something that they rightly point out in their statement they are still in the dark about.

Johnston's comments, and indeed Danny Lennon's were un-necessary, and ill-judged. My understanding is that the SPL chairmen genuinely don't know what the hell to do - it's a mess, and doesn't look like being cleared up anytime soon... and the clock is ticking. The other clubs are (to a large degree) in the same boat as us... waiting for something to actually happen at Ibrox from Haudit & Daudit that gives us some idea of what the hell is actually going to end up happening at that place.

Nothing to debate IMO

For the majority of SPL teams it is all about self preservation . Honesty ,and integrity have been forgotten . The fact that the game has been brought into disrepute should be enough for every team in Scotland to now snub this rotten vile establishment and put an end to cheating on such a scale.

I would be shocked If they are allowed to continue in any form at all , let alone the SPL .

[ShedruleFTD83]

A famous quote says, " Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror.Kill them all, and you are a god"

This has been rankers attitude from the start. Not only have the fans been saying that the club is too big to die, but many within the club have thought the same. They believed they could do what they liked because they were so big that they had become almost untouchable.

What has been most embarrassing of all their posturing is that to lose them would hurt scottish football and that is a concern of theirs. We all know they couldnt give a flying f**k about anyone else apart from themselves. But what they are doing is making veiled threats. School bullies.

The media is so entrenched with ex-rankers players and journos who are good with friends with ex-players that were part of this farce, that despite ample opportunity no one has actually asked eg, Billy Dodds, Sally, Watty, if they ever got or knew anything about EBTs or other things going on at the club. Although privately I have no doubts that the likes of Chico and Traytor have been told what was going on but havent put it out there to the public. All off the record, nudge nudge, wink, wink.

And now we have the Director of football for Ross County having received an EBT for his time at rankers. I wonder how they will vote? Hmmmm

And last but not least media whore Paul Murray. Quite happy last night to ask for answers to the questions posed by the programme but got a bit flustered when asked what he knew about the EBTs when he was at Ipox. All he would say was that "I personally didnt benefit from an EBT." that doesnt really answer the question Paul, but a nice attempt at deflecting though.

At least Britney is holding his hands up and saying (via a not so sly dig at the DR) that the media didnt do its job properly. Although I do disagree with him that Minty was duped. I agree with the other guy that said Minty was just glad to find someone that would take the club off his hands so didnt ask any questions.

But at least we can still get our daily laugh, today provided by John Brown, who is......................"

adamant Ibrox remains a major attraction for players around the world."

Like um, er, eh Ian Black.

Spot on.

[GirondistNYC]

1337878911[/url]' post='6268854']

Dear members of 'Pie and Bovril',

We, the undersigned, are dismayed at your continuing usage of our name as a term of abuse towards a prominent member of the Scottish footballing hierarchy,

As generally benign creatures we feel we are being grossly maligned in the appellation you have ascribed to one Mr Doncaster. As it is, we feel we work tirelessly to assist humanity wherever possible and resent the implication that the usage of our name can in any way be described as an insult.

It would be greatly appreciated if you could cease this negative campaign towards our beleaguered race forthwith.

Yours,

Orinoco, Bulgaria, Tobermory, Tomsk and Madame Cholet.

p.s. We're playing nice now, but if you don't desist forthwith, we'll send Cribbens round with a baseball bat. He's handy, you know.

Might Wimbledon AFC, the poster child for cleansing sins through fan driven progress up the pyramid, be slightly annoyed as well?

[WaffenThinMint]

Pheeeeeeew. Thats ok. Thought you were going to have him sing at us.

Come to think of it, that song "Right Said Fred" could almost be mistaken for the minutes of an SPL meeting about Rangers.

[ShedruleFTD83]

The Rangers supporters are shaking their buckets and thecoins rattling inside are attracting the attention of the faithful making theirway into the ‘Big Hoose’. We are told that the fans have raised a commendable£500,000 to contribute to the fighting fund and the objective of saving theirclub. This picture is broadcast as part of the ‘They sold the Jerseys’ BBCdocumentary and it sits very uncomfortably alongside the claims of greed, dodgydeals, back-handers and egotistical actions surrounding ‘the most famous footballclub on the planet’

While some discuss the merits of David Murray’s admissionthat he was duped, my mind wanders back to these unthinking fools collectingcoins in buckets. If ever there was a group of people who have been duped it isthey. If the content of the BBC programme is substantiated it will be clearthat the victims in this sorry episode are the grass roots football supporters.

We have all been duped to a certain extent, by acceptingthat Rangers were a bona fide football club, when in reality their officebearers were a duplicitous bunch of scoundrels who have been lining theirpockets at the expense of the gullible football fan.

What is it we have been watching since David Murray took thehelm at Rangers ? It seems to me that itis nothing more than a charade and the only objective for him was thedevelopment of his ego. Let me remind everyone. David Murray was adyed-in-the-wool Ayr United supporter. He danced a couple of dances with theHonest Men and just when we thought he would propose marriage, he spotted a bigsexy bird from Glasgow and we were duly dumped as he hastily chased the skirtto the big city. “I can assure the Ayr supporters I won’t be going away” saidour number one fan, just before he jumped in a taxi to Ibrox to assume hisposition at the top of Scottish football. The fickle Rangers fans welcomed him with openarms and it didn’t take long for confirmation that he was truly the Messiahthey craved. Well, he had lots and lots of money. What else matters ?

Well, actually, he never. Just like Craig Whyte all theseyears later he put nothing in. The bank paid £6m and the rest is history. I’mnot sure that Craig Whyte took out as much as £6.3m for himself but we now knowthat this Knight of the Realm had no qualms about helping himself.

What about his sycophants though ? The bank officials ? theRangers board members ? the highly paid mercenary players who loved Rangers ?They all did very nicely out of the whole affair. I haven’t seen any of them helpingwith the collection buckets.

They now seem to be of the opinion that they can walk awayunscathed from this fiasco. After all, it wasn’t them. They never knew what wasgoing on ? It had nothing to do with theclub, it was the work of one individual, Craig Whyte. How can the club bepunished for the deeds of an errant individual. Well, it now appears that therewere two., Sir David and Craig Whyte. The Rangers Football Club and everyone elseconnected to the club were innocent victims. They are all keen to tell us aboutthe part they played in the success, the trophies, the European final, theleague triumphs. All the success ? That was down to them. The bad stuff ? Ohno, nothing to do with us Gov.

The favoured solution for an inordinate amount ofself-interested people is a return to normality. Welcome Rangers back into thefold without further sanctions and show due deference to the greatest club on Earth.To do so means the other clubs within the SPL selling their souls to the devilbut, as they would have us believe, they will all go out of business withoutthe support of this altruistic organisation.

As for the guys who are collecting the cash in buckets, thefans who have paid hard-earned money for season tickets for their respectiveteams, the pay at the gate supporters who can ill-afford season tickets, theSky television subscribers who have shelled out disproportionate amounts oftheir earnings to have it distributed to these financial terrorists, it’s timeto wake up.

We’ve been duped, not David Murray, not the players, not theboard members, not the chairmen of the ‘diddy’ clubs. No, it’s us. We’ve allheard the patronising phrase ‘The game is all about the fans’ but we all knowbetter now. We can’t have reconstruction, we can’t have equitable competition.We need to do what we’re told. Pay up and shut up.

The institution that is Glasgow Rangers has no place within Scottishfootball. Not in the SPL, not in the first division, not in the seconddivision, not in the third division. Thanks to the corrupt deeds of officials atthis club they have waived their right to be included in our national game andthey should be held up as an example to those who would consider the same typeof conduct. The SFA panel believed that Rangers’ expulsion from membership ofthe SFA would be too harsh. They meant well but they got it wrong. That verypunishment would have been appropriate in the circumstances.

The actions of these people must result in appropriateconsequences and unfortunately that will not result in a victimless scenario. Thecoin collectors have raised half a million ponds but, as we all know, that’s adrop in the ocean when compared to the ludicrous sums of money that havechanged hands in their name. It is also a totally irrelevant amount of money inthe grand scheme to save their club.

Should the right thing be done, the decent,law-abiding supporters of Rangers will watch as their beloved club is consignedto the dustbin. Would they rather be fans of a club that is reviled by everysupporter in the land and forever tainted ?

Will green dot this tomorrow

[HibeeJibee]

Apologies if someone has already asked this. What I don't understand is why, if Rangers thought EBTs were legal and above board, they felt they had to keep them quiet and hide them from the SPL/SFA.

They didn't hide them... they did not (as far as we know) declare them as regular playing contracts to SFA/SPL, and they argue they weren't thus they didn't need to be. Subtle but important difference. Also the EBTs themselves were in the accounts.

Issues are [1] were the EBTs legally administered (taxman) and [2] were they actualy 2nd contracts (football authorities).

Edited May 24, 2012 by HibeeJibee

[Chazza1910]

Never Mind - the curse is working, Airdrie have played in only three first division playoff finals...

2008 Airdrie lost to Clyde in the final, and were promoted to Division 1 because Gretna went bust.

2009 Airdrie lost to Ayr Utd in the final and retained their Division 1 position because Livingston were relegated to Division 3 due to financial irregularity

2012 Airdrie lost to Dumbarton in the final, complete this pattern

God, is it really only twice?

Airdrie must not be allowed to play Dundee, at any cost!!!

Of course, they wouldn't, if it all works out...

[wunfellaff]

I dont know if anyone has had a look at this website but it is very interesting regarding EBTs..........

Typically if you use an EBT provider you will receive a small basic salary (something around the minimum wage level) with the remainder of your income coming to you via a loan. Now even to us, this sounds a little strange, imagine what HM revenue and customs will think about it, if you are ever investigated – 'so you receive a small salary and the rest of you money via a loan?' but it doesn't stop there, what happens if / when the loan is written off? Once written off, the loans become taxable and you immediately become liable for the back taxes. Now the provider may say 'don't worry the loan is never written off', well that's ok providing it's always the same provider, however this doesn't detract from the fact that you do and always will owe the money which will mean you may or may not be asked to pay back (it's probably not something you'd like hanging over your head for eternity).

As the funds were paid by a trust, does anybody know what state it is in just now after paying out all these millions? If it goes magee up, then the loan is written off is it not?

[Abstract]

I work for one of Rangers' creditors. I've been in contat with D&P this week regarding some things and they have said they expect the "administration period to cease in early June."

Does that leave enough time for a CVA or would they sell up and leave that to the new owners?

[GordieBoy80]

Optimistic perhaps ?

http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk/detailjob.aspx?sessionid=791dc10b-c816-4e97-9745-ef2ecc752c5f&pid=1&j=GOV/45116

Also a new page I've set up on Facebook for the sake of it dedicated to Cockwomble Neil Doncaster

https://www.facebook.com/NeilDoncasterIsACockwomble

Cheers to pozbaird for the picture of Cockwomble Neil Doncaster

I've listed the website as cockwomble.org.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

I work for one of Rangers' creditors. I've been in contat with D&P this week regarding some things and they have said they expect the "administration period to cease in early June."

And you believed them? Wow.

[Chazza1910]

I work for one of Rangers' creditors. I've been in contat with D&P this week regarding some things and they have said they expect the "administration period to cease in early June."

Does that leave enough time for a CVA or would they sell up and leave that to the new owners?

Sounds like a newco to me. CVA can't be finalised until July.

Trying to remember Dundee's chain of events...

CVA was agreed around November, I think, ONE MONTH after going into admin, not three and counting. What a joke.

But we didn't come out of admin until end of March, I think.

[The DA]

They didn't hide them... they did not (as far as we know) declare them as regular playing contracts to SFA/SPL, and they argue they weren't thus they didn't need to be. Subtle but important difference. Also the EBTs themselves were in the accounts.

Issues are [1] were the EBTs legally administered (taxman) and [2] were they actualy 2nd contracts (football authorities).

Regarding number 2:

"It's debatable, Sir David, but we believe we're in the right and EBT's are above board. However, there may be questions - you know what these diddies are like - so, just to be on the safe side, and since we have nothing to lose by doing so, maybe we should tell the footballing authorities. In the spirit of transparency, you understand".

[chrismcarab]

They didn't hide them... they did not (as far as we know) declare them as regular playing contracts to SFA/SPL, and they argue they weren't thus they didn't need to be. Subtle but important difference. Also the EBTs themselves were in the accounts.

Issues are [1] were the EBTs legally administered (taxman) and [2] were they actualy 2nd contracts (football authorities).

The clues in the name lads - 'side' letters. It's either a letter, or it isn't. Haven't had many side letters through the mail recently have you? The very wording implies that they were meant as secret arrangements between the club and the employee. It was meant to be secret because they didn't want to declare the 'side letters' that applied, specifically in terms of the playing staff, for example - Novo.

David Murray taking an EBT, regardless of its size doesn't break footballing rules since, well.....ok bad example. But you get the picture.

If players receive an EBT as a tax free top up of wages, regardless how small an amount, that does break footballing rules. Novo is a fine example of that, what was his basic wage? How much was his EBT? They weren't paying Novo as a club ambassador thats for sure, that would be like having Fatima Whitbread advertising panty liners for Team GB. Doesn't make sense.

They knew full well it would be construed as a top of players wages and effectively constitutes a second contract, as in the Papac case, to pay him for playing football. It's not really the complicated issue that some folks are making it out to be, imo.

There are two very clear distinctions to be made here and the BBC documentary cleared that up and provided the evidence to warrant a full subsequent punishment for breaches of footballing rules directly attributable to the EBT scheme. HMRC will take care of the rest. A nice rangers spit roast .

[pansypotterthedirtyrotter]

As the funds were paid by a trust, does anybody know what state it is in just now after paying out all these millions? If it goes magee up, then the loan is written off is it not?

Have a look at this

"Loans must be reported to HMRC if the recipient earns more than £8,500, using form P11D. It is likely that you will have to pay Class 1A National Insurance Contributions on the cash value of your purchase; whether or not you will also be required to pay income tax will depend on the nature of the purchase. More information on benefits in kind, including examples of what is and is not taxable, is available in an article elsewhere on this site."

link

[Invalid Probe]

Depressingly, Rangers demise has become my drug of choice. The euphoria when more scandal comes out. The harsh come-down when I realise they are still going. Chasing the dragon for the true high.

[The DA]

BBC2, right now. Top of the Pops 2 - Tina Turner. The Best.

More chance of her playing in the SPL this season than certain others...