Hillsborough debate

[s_dog]

Their attitudes still reflect it at times, I converse with loads of ex police who for the most part all seem like decent guys, I've also been in the vicinity of plenty of police at the football and for the most part seem like knobs, must be the uniform.

 

Just as there are guys who put on a uniform and become knobs when faced with a crowd of football fans, there are guys who turn up at football grounds and turn into knobs when they see someone in a uniform. 

[wintonfan]

This is one of the tragedies of the whole affair. Even if the police incompetency on the day had gone exactly the same (which it may not have without a hooligan situation which engendered a policy of confrontation) - the terrace would never have been 'penned' in the way it was and the fans would have been able to escape onto the pitch, had it not been for the fencing put up to control hooliganism.

 

By the same token, the authorities knew the lay-out and didn't take decisions reflecting it.

 

 

I have a book called "The Sunday Times Illustrated History of Football" published around the millennium which devotes a few pages to each season in British in football since its inception in Victorian times... Flicking through the later 1970s and 1980s it is quite alarming how many of the big stories are about disorder - not just big events like the Hampden Riot and Heysel, but numerous 'small' cases of fighting and pitch invasions, and a number of instances of fans being knifed to death after games.

 

What seems most extraordinary nowadays is that the games were almost invariably finished? For example: in 1985 there was a huge riot during the FA Cup QF between Luton and Millwall... Hundreds of away fans trashed the stands, invaded the park then fought "running battles" with 200 police, smashed up the town centre and trains on their way home, and left 47 people injured. Nowadays the game would quite clearly be abandoned but in actual fact they resumed after a 25min stoppage!

 

the 70's and 80's were crazy times in football with the large "firms" going to cause chaos, the Luton V Millwall game is just typical of that era, it wasnt just Millwall fans that had the bother, it was a night out for thugs from almost every London club, reports said that as the game wasnt all ticket anyone could gain entry and the away terrace was dangerously overfilled. Fans got onto the pitch and had a fight with the police, dont forget even Luton had its thugs as at the time Luton were a 1st division club. The whole segregation by containment became the norm, fans were put onto pens on crumbling terraces with no safe way out, just look at the terms used by the police, coralling, herding. they were treated as animals not paying customers and it got to a stage that decent fans werent going to football. also away fans were held in the grounds for up to a hour after the game finished so the police could clear the streets of home fans. 

 

The circumstances that surrounded hillsborough were possibly unique, a bad set of events that ended up in so many deaths, the design of the ground (most crush barriers didnt meet safety regs and the gates in the front fence didnt), it was the away end so naturally it wasnt as good as the home end, the access problems, lack of signage to the end pens. Add to the mix fans arriving late due to roadworks, a police team with a rookie at the helm. It all added up. The documentary was harrowing and I have followed hillsborough since day one, I used it as part of my uni dissertation in 95 (got a good pass mark) and I followed the new inquests. There was only 1 verdict and the verdict should have came in 1990, Taylor was right all along. My partner was watching the documentary with me and she was shocked at the pens but that was almost the norm back then, I can remember being at Hampden and being in a crush, I saw fans treated like aninals at ayr united, getting crushed at the east terrace bottleneck at kilmarnock was the norm. It was how football was back then, the grounds were in a lot of cases death traps. Wooden stands with people still smoking in them post bradford, rusty crush barriers, crumbling terrace steps, not enough exits. Thankfully in the main in scotland we didnt have the perimeter fencing so the pitch could be used in escape

 

I posted on page 1 of this thread about my opinions and got shouted down and abused, perhaps I wasnt talking pish after all 

[ayrmad]

Just as there are guys who put on a uniform and become knobs when faced with a crowd of football fans, there are guys who turn up at football grounds and turn into knobs when they see someone in a uniform. 

I've been that guy on occasion.

[resk]

Just finished watching the 30 for 30 documentary, incredible stuff. I was really struck by the accounts of some of the coppers on duty, especially one guy who later on was furious at how his account had been "sanitised". Watch it.

[Gianfranco]

I must have missed this somewhere when watching it but nobody seems to be escaping the way they came in?

I wondered about this as well. Did stadiums have speaker systems at that time? Surely even some kind of microphone etc could have been used to tell people still coming in to go back.

[NewBlue]

I wondered about this as well. Did stadiums have speaker systems at that time? Surely even some kind of microphone etc could have been used to tell people still coming in to go back.

 

They did have a P.A. I read somewhere that Kenny Dalglish used it to announce the game was abandoned. Why it wasn't used before that to announce what was going on is just another example of the total failure of the response.

[pandarilla]

I wondered about this as well. Did stadiums have speaker systems at that time? Surely even some kind of microphone etc could have been used to tell people still coming in to go back.

Those in charge froze. No decision, no help given, nothing.

[Gianfranco]

Yeah they froze alright. The cops near the pens never seemed to radio up for that to happen but surely the people in the command box should have seen what was going on and took action regardless. The whole thing is just tragic.

[Mark Connolly]

Just finished watching the 30 for 30 documentary, incredible stuff. I was really struck by the accounts of some of the coppers on duty, especially one guy who later on was furious at how his account had been "sanitised". Watch it.

 

There was one on the BBC documentary saying the same thing - I haven't seen the 30 for 30 so I'm not sure if it's the same guy. He also got tore into Chief Inspector (IIRC), who told them all not to bother recording anything in their pocket books.

[pandarilla]

There was one on the BBC documentary saying the same thing - I haven't seen the 30 for 30 so I'm not sure if it's the same guy. He also got tore into Chief Inspector (IIRC), who told them all not to bother recording anything in their pocket books.

The BBC one was the espn one. They just add a minute or so at the end.

[dee_62]

Yeah they froze alright. The cops near the pens never seemed to radio up for that to happen but surely the people in the command box should have seen what was going on and took action regardless. The whole thing is just tragic.

Was that not part of the problem too? Lack of Walkie talkies. One ex copper interviewed said only his Sergeant at the Liverpool end had comms.

[Mark Connolly]

The BBC one was the espn one. They just add a minute or so at the end.

 

Fair enough. Felt really sorry for that copper tbh - seemed like even the rank and file polis were hung out to dry by their superiors.

[pandarilla]

Fair enough. Felt really sorry for that copper tbh - seemed like even the rank and file polis were hung out to dry by their superiors.

There was a lot of good police caught up in that. No-one took charge but people tried to get things organised. Human nature kicks in and some folk panic and cover their own arse, and others simply try to help.

The cover up would've been hard to challenge from the inside. Grassing up nowadays is difficult enough but back then, not really an option.

[nofixedability]

 

 

 

I posted on page 1 of this thread about my opinions and got shouted down and abused, perhaps I wasnt talking pish after all 

Page 1 of this thread actually perfectly demonstrates how well the authorities got their version of events out there as being "the facts".

[dee_62]

Page 1 of this thread actually perfectly demonstrates how well the authorities got their version of events out there as being "the facts".

 

Spot on - I re-read pages one and two (couldn't go any further) of this thread yesterday and was disappointed/saddened/sickened with the amount of nonsense many people spouted as truth because they'd read it in the papers, seen it on the news or just held it to be true due to their own prejudices.

[Bishop Briggs]

It really does show the power of the media even back then.

 

It shows the incredible power of the senior policemen who were responsible. They briefed the gullible media and politicians who believed every word that they said. 

[dee_62]

It shows the incredible power of the senior policemen who were responsible. They briefed the gullible media and politicians who believed every word that they said.

Yep, a reflection on how poorly football fans generally, were thought of back in the 80s. People would believe the worst.

[DA Baracus]

Spot on - I re-read pages one and two (couldn't go any further) of this thread yesterday and was disappointed/saddened/sickened with the amount of nonsense many people spouted as truth because they'd read it in the papers, seen it on the news or just held it to be true due to their own prejudices.

I wonder if any of the hard and edgy posters spouting that shite will comment now?

Either they are thundering morons who will believe any old shite the media tell them to believe or for some reason simply wanted what they said to be true. Which is odd given some of the posters involved as some of them come across as reasonable and not that kind on many other threads. Do any of them buy in to the whole 'our brave boys' bullshit about soldiers that the media peddle for example? If not then why were did they seemingly so quickly and unquestioningly believe the lies about 'drunk ticketless fans' and the other lies used to smear the fans as part of the cover up?

Edited May 11, 2016 by DA Baracus

[Rab B Nesbit]

Spot on - I re-read pages one and two (couldn't go any further) of this thread yesterday and was disappointed/saddened/sickened with the amount of nonsense many people spouted as truth because they'd read it in the papers, seen it on the news or just held it to be true due to their own prejudices.

There are a couple of older threads on here somewhere about Hillsborough with even worse. I was shot down with all sorts for saying so.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Rab B Nesbit

[Jambomo]

Yep, a reflection on how poorly football fans generally, were thought of back in the 80s. People would believe the worst.

People believed the worst, believed the things the media said, because in those days fans often behaved badly and the things that were said were believable.

Given that English football was still in a period where fans were banned from Europe for their behaviour (stemming from Liverpool fans behaviour at Heysel) the idea that people are stupid or moronic for believing what was said is ridiculous, in the context of the time it was sadly all too plausible.

That said I am glad they have managed to get get the truth out and have some kind of redress - it's a shame that those responsible, especially for the cover-up and smearing the victims names, probably can't be brought to justice now.