Hillsborough debate

[Owsley]

Some very ignorant views around page 100. I hope they were watching last night's definitive documentary.

The fans, whether they'd had six pints or were stone cold sober, whether they arrived late or were in place at half one, had every right to expect that there would be enough room for everybody to be accommodated. That the much smaller Forest support should be given the larger end was a huge error, even allowing for the local geography explanation.

Duckenfield, if he hadn't frozen, should have insisted the kick off be delayed and ordered his men to block off the tunnel entrance. Motson noticed the room on either side about 2.45.

[Owsley]

The remark earlier "no one forced them to crush the fans" is one I've heard whenever this topic has come up since 1989. It just staggers me. Is it so difficult to put yourself in that position? To imagine being swept along by a crowd, desperate to get in in time for kick off? Many will have been there for two years running. It wouldn't have entered their heads that, once inside it would be carnage.

[peasy23]

The remark earlier "no one forced them to crush the fans" is one I've heard whenever this topic has come up since 1989. It just staggers me. Is it so difficult to put yourself in that position? To imagine being swept along by a crowd, desperate to get in in time for kick off? Many will have been there for two years running. It wouldn't have entered their heads that, once inside it would be carnage.

I posted somewhere further up that there are a lot of posters on here who would have no experience of what stadiums were like back then. I can vividly remember coming out of the north terracing at Hampden and not touching a single stair on the way down the first flight, swept along with the weight of people heading for the exits.

I've downloaded last night's documentary and will catch up with it through the week. I don't expect it to be an easy watch, but having seen other ESPN docs I know it will be very thorough.

[peasy23]

Motson noticed the room on either side about 2.45.

I watched the BBC doc from when the independent panel report came out, and as you say Motson spotted how busy the central pens were compared to the sides well before kick off. How the police control room didn't either spot or react to that was one of the major causes of the tragedy. Edited May 9, 2016 by peasy23

[Wile E Coyote]

I posted somewhere further up that there are a lot of posters on here who would have no experience of what stadiums were like back then. I can vividly remember coming out of the north terracing at Hampden and not touching a single stair on the way down the first flight, swept along with the weight of people heading for the exits.

 

 

This. A lot of posters on here will only have been to games in the all seated era.

Before this, you went through a turnstyle into a narrow concourse with a few dark tunnels heading to the terraces, you had no idea how busy that pen was until you got into it. There were fences at either side and at the front to stop you getting on the pitch. You were literally penned in. If the pen you went into was too busy you had to come out the way you came and go in the next tunnel

[NewBlue]

I read an interesting article about crowd movement which I cannot find now It was mainly looking at concerts and crushes at religious festivals. It said that when studying large crowds it becomes a matter of fluid dynamics in the sense that the whole crowd act as one mass. It might help people understand how crowds move and crushes happen. Will link if I find it.

Edited May 9, 2016 by NewBlue

[D.A.F.C]

Watched the doc last night. I can't believe how inept the police were. When you see the crush outside they should've called the game off and announced it over the PA system.

Seeing the build up in the central pen how hard would have it been to shut the door at the back and escort some fans to the left and right pens?

There was a box overlooking all of this. Felt really angry about it still after all this time.

Ok, bad mistakes were made, it happens, but the people who did nothing and then tried to cover it up should be prosecuted or at least named and shamed. Editing statements, harassing witnesses and making up lies.

Pretty terrifying to think the so called establishment did this and got away with it.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Watched the doc last night. I can't believe how inept the police were. When you see the crush outside they should've called the game off and announced it over the PA system.

Seeing the build up in the central pen how hard would have it been to shut the door at the back and escort some fans to the left and right pens?

There was a box overlooking all of this. Felt really angry about it still after all this time.

Ok, bad mistakes were made, it happens, but the people who did nothing and then tried to cover it up should be prosecuted or at least named and shamed. Editing statements, harassing witnesses and making up lies.

Pretty terrifying to think the so called establishment did this and got away with it.

 

Duckenfield completely shat it, had no idea what to do and stood and watched fans dying as a direct result of his own incompetence. I think i posted a few years back in this thread that of the high ranking cops involved on the day, Duckenfield is the only cop left that can be really be gone after to any great degree. The others have probably snuffed it by now, having trousered a few years of sizeable pensions.

 

I'm just old enough to remember terracing at shit football grounds. Luckily, being a Dundee fan, crushes due to big crowds were somewhat rare. However the Police's general view of fans, particularly away fans, was one of absolute contempt. The late 80s were of course well before mobile phones able to shoot video, take photos etc, so you basically had a situation where a large number of police had carte blanche to behave however they fancied to fans with pretty much zero chance of disciplinary action. Football fans were animals who had to be herded and controlled no matter what.

[peasy23]

Seeing the build up in the central pen how hard would have it been to shut the door at the back and escort some fans to the left and right pens?

There was a box overlooking all of this. Felt really angry about it still after all this time.

And that is the worst part, it had happened so many times that the central pens got overcrowded that the police had a codeword to close the gates into that area, with one policeman who had the key and it would have taken all of 2-3 minutes for him to close and lock the gates.

Opening the gate to relieve the crush outside the turnstile was the right thing to do, but only if the central pens had been closed off first.

[itzdrk]

I must have missed this somewhere when watching it but nobody seems to be escaping the way they came in?

[Fife Saint]

I must have missed this somewhere when watching it but nobody seems to be escaping the way they came in?

People were still trying to get in from what I saw on the footage. Late on you can see police helmets trying to regain control of the tunnel exit that lead onto the terrace. Too late by that point.

[peasy23]

Watched it during the night, and it reinforces some of the stuff I've argued about with a friend who is now an ex cop for years. He is still entrenched in the view that the fans were to blame. I've always argued with him that the evidence was that the police's attempts at crowd control were pitiful, and that although the vast majority of the rank and file officers did their best on the day, they were failed by their senior management whose chief concern was to try and cover their own arses while people were still dying.

Paul Middup from the police federation is a right loathsome c**t.

[DA Baracus]

This sort of incident happening was only a matter of time given how fans were treated back then.

 

It sounds paranoid and a bit mental, but maybe certain members of the police, under orders from certain members of parliament, were looking for some problems to happen in order to smear fans and push through the all seater measures and other measures designed to restrict fans meeting and to put them under massively more surveillance and control, that certain sections of the government(s) had been wanting for years, and perhaps they saw that opportunity at Hillborough but things got out of hand much quicker than they expected leading to the tragedy and certain members of the police went with it. 

 

Were the lies/cover ups, smearing of the supporters, dodgy inquests, impounding of evidence and blocking further inquests, utilising the government's pet media, all simply to save some jobs and reputations within the police? I wouldn't be surprised if it was much larger, i.e. what I've said above. In fact I would be surprised if it all was just to protect a few jobs and reputations.

 

 

As for folk still blaming fans, despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary (especially the CCTV in the documentary, the results of the counts on the turnstiles those guys did as shown in the documentary and many of the original police statements) and a jury saying otherwise, they are simply just nasty wee arseholes trying to appear edgy and controversial. 

Edited May 10, 2016 by DA Baracus

[ICTChris]

This sort of incident happening was only a matter of time given how fans were treated back then.

 

It sounds paranoid and a bit mental, but maybe certain members of the police, under orders from certain members of parliament, were looking for some problems to happen in order to smear fans and push through the all seater measures and other measures designed to restrict fans meeting and to put them under massively more surveillance and control, that certain sections of the government(s) had been wanting for years, and perhaps they saw that opportunity at Hillborough but things got out of hand much quicker than they expected leading to the tragedy and certain members of the police went with it. 

 

Were the lies/cover ups, smearing of the supporters, dodgy inquests, impounding of evidence and blocking further inquests, utilising the government's pet media, all simply to save some jobs and reputations within the police? I wouldn't be surprised if it was much larger, i.e. what I've said above. In fact I would be surprised if it all was just to protect a few jobs and reputations.

 

 

As for folk still blaming fans, despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary (especially the CCTV in the documentary, the results of the counts on the turnstiles those guys did as shown in the documentary and many of the original police statements) and a jury saying otherwise, they are simply just nasty wee arseholes trying to appear edgy and controversial. 

 

I don't think it was a widespread over-arching conspiracy against football fans.  The police in charge of the match were incompetent and lied to cover up their failures.  They were found out and called on it almost right away - the Taylor Report contained all this information.  People knew.

 

I think that the way football fans were viewed made the disaster inevitable.  Penned up in cages, treated like scum, policed not like people attending a leisure event but like escaped criminals.  Also, the way that football fans 

 

I remember watching Making A Murderer and thinking that the social aspect, the social heirarchy, made it easier for the police in that to frame Steven Avery.  The Avery family were white trash, Steven himself was an oddball, they weren't part of the society of the town or county.  Police looked at them and thought - yep, he's no good, he probably did it.  It's kind of the same with the Liverpool fans - immediately, DURING the disaster, Duckenfield said that fans had stormed the turnstiles.  It was his default setting, football fans are scum, no-good and must've been responsible for this.  The Police Federation guy and the local MP just reinforced this - why would anyone believe the words of football fans over police officers, police commanders no less.

[nofixedability]

Paul Middup from the police federation is a right loathsome c**t.

Rarely felt like putting my foot through a telly as much as when he was on spouting his shite.

 

The footage from the semi a few years earlier (Spurs v. Wolves?) was eerily similar to what happened.

 

A hard watch but worth it just to realise the scale of cover up by the establishment (cops/media/politicians), especially after Taylors original findings. 

[nofixedability]

 

 

I think that the way football fans were viewed made the disaster inevitable.  Penned up in cages, treated like scum, policed not like people attending a leisure event but like escaped criminals.

 

 

Part of the wider blame for that treatment does lie with football fans of that era in my opinion. The eighties were awash with hooliganism and fighting and pitch battles and seat ripping antics (not to mention Heysel). That led directly to those bloody caged fences at the front which made sure there was no escape when there were too many fans in there.

[Tommy Nooka]

Duckenfield completely shat it, had no idea what to do and stood and watched fans dying as a direct result of his own incompetence. I think i posted a few years back in this thread that of the high ranking cops involved on the day, Duckenfield is the only cop left that can be really be gone after to any great degree. The others have probably snuffed it by now, having trousered a few years of sizeable pensions.

 

I'm just old enough to remember terracing at shit football grounds. Luckily, being a Dundee fan, crushes due to big crowds were somewhat rare. However the Police's general view of fans, particularly away fans, was one of absolute contempt. The late 80s were of course well before mobile phones able to shoot video, take photos etc, so you basically had a situation where a large number of police had carte blanche to behave however they fancied to fans with pretty much zero chance of disciplinary action. Football fans were animals who had to be herded and controlled no matter what.

 

Tbf to the police for once, football fans, particularly those in England, had a bit of a behaviour problem in those days. I'm not saying they did on the day of Hillsborough, just that police attitudes would have reflected this. 

It wasn't just the stadiums that were a completely different experience back then.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Tbf to the police for once, football fans, particularly those in England, had a bit of a behaviour problem in those days. I'm not saying they did on the day of Hillsborough, just that police attitudes would have reflected this. 

It wasn't just the stadiums that were a completely different experience back then.

The police couldn't really cope with large gatherings in the 80's.

 

It was a time when the authorities were expecting trouble from football fans, striking miners, inner city gangs, poll tax rioters, the list could go on. Who was there at them all, the police were. It was their overall attitude back then that has been forgotten in the years that have gone by.

[HibeeJibee]

Part of the wider blame for that treatment does lie with football fans of that era in my opinion. The eighties were awash with hooliganism and fighting and pitch battles and seat ripping antics (not to mention Heysel). That led directly to those bloody caged fences at the front which made sure there was no escape when there were too many fans in there.

 

This is one of the tragedies of the whole affair. Even if the police incompetency on the day had gone exactly the same (which it may not have without a hooligan situation which engendered a policy of confrontation) - the terrace would never have been 'penned' in the way it was and the fans would have been able to escape onto the pitch, had it not been for the fencing put up to control hooliganism.

 

By the same token, the authorities knew the lay-out and didn't take decisions reflecting it.

 

 

I have a book called "The Sunday Times Illustrated History of Football" published around the millennium which devotes a few pages to each season in British in football since its inception in Victorian times... Flicking through the later 1970s and 1980s it is quite alarming how many of the big stories are about disorder - not just big events like the Hampden Riot and Heysel, but numerous 'small' cases of fighting and pitch invasions, and a number of instances of fans being knifed to death after games.

 

What seems most extraordinary nowadays is that the games were almost invariably finished? For example: in 1985 there was a huge riot during the FA Cup QF between Luton and Millwall... Hundreds of away fans trashed the stands, invaded the park then fought "running battles" with 200 police, smashed up the town centre and trains on their way home, and left 47 people injured. Nowadays the game would quite clearly be abandoned but in actual fact they resumed after a 25min stoppage!

[ayrmad]

Tbf to the police for once, football fans, particularly those in England, had a bit of a behaviour problem in those days. I'm not saying they did on the day of Hillsborough, just that police attitudes would have reflected this. 

It wasn't just the stadiums that were a completely different experience back then.

Their attitudes still reflect it at times, I converse with loads of ex police who for the most part all seem like decent guys, I've also been in the vicinity of plenty of police at the football and for the most part seem like knobs, must be the uniform.