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Hillsborough debate


Desert Nomad

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Some things just fade from public perception in time, I suppose.

 

If you stopped 100 people in the street how many would even know of the sinking of Princess Victoria.

 

 

Seems a slightly macabre list but I suppose it also puts things in context.

 

I've excluded things like the London smog, heatwaves / coldsnaps, the Troubles, etc.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disasters_in_Great_Britain_and_Ireland_by_death_toll

 

270 - Lockerbie airliner bombing

193 - Herald of Free Enterprise ferry sinking

167 - Piper Alpha oil platform fire

144 - Aberfan slag heap disaster

133 - Princess Victoria ferry sinking (91 died elsewhere at sea and 307 on land by North Sea floods caused by the same storm)

118 - Staines air crash

112 - Harrow rail crash

104 - Whitehaven mine disaster

96 - Hillsborough stadium crush

90 - Lewisham rail crash

81 - Easington mine disaster

80 - Llandow air crash

80 - Creswell mine disaster

75 - sinking of HMS Affray

72 - Stockport air crash

66 - Ibrox stadium crush

64 - sinking of HMS Truculent

56 - Valley Parade stadium fire

56 - 7/7 London bombings

55 - Manchester air crash

51 - Marchioness pleasureboat sinking

50 - Summerland leisure centre fire

49 - Hither Green rail crash

47 - Samtampa steamship sinking

47 - Auchengeich mine disaster

47 - Kegworth air crash

45 - Aberbeeg mine disaster

45 - Isle of Wight flying boat crash

45 - Sumburgh helicopter crash

43 - Bourne End rail crash

43 - Moorgate underground crash

41 - Little Baldon air crash

 

I haven't heard of half of them, but I'm assuming most of them must have happened in my life time.

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Depend when you were born... From 1980s onwards the list is limited to: Lockerbie (1988), Herald of Free Enterprise (1987), Piper Alpha (1988), Hillsborough (1989), Valley Parade (1985), Manchester air crash (1985), Marchioness boat sinking (1985), Kegworth air crash (1989), Sumburgh helicopter crash (1986) and the 7/7 bombings (2005) which represents only occurrence since 1980s with more than 40 fatalities. That said 3 worst since WWII occurred from March 1987-December 1988.

 

Improved transport safety, no mines, etc.

Edited by HibeeJibee
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I remember it being really fucking hot in the summer of 2003 but I sure as hell don't remember 2,000 people dying

 

It'll be "increased death-rate". I remember Paris outcry.

 

It'll have happened most heat-waves / cold-snaps, just 2003 is post-internet.

Edited by HibeeJibee
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It'll be "increased death-rate". I remember Paris outcry.

 

It'll have happened most heat-waves / cold-snaps, just 2003 is post-internet.

 

 

What does that mean? People with cancer etc dying faster than they'd be expected or people literally dropping dead?

 

As a side note, I spent that summer living with my dad's sister down in London. I dunno what it was like in Scotland, but f**k me it was hot down there. I've never holidayed any further away than Turkey/Greece/Canaries and rarely go away at the height of summer, but London that summer was even hotter than I've ever experienced abroad. Sitting in a car was almost unbearable and you'd be necking a litre of water every hour.

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Depend when you were born... From 1980s onwards the list is limited to: Lockerbie (1988), Herald of Free Enterprise (1987), Piper Alpha (1988), Hillsborough (1989), Valley Parade (1985), Manchester air crash (1985), Marchioness boat sinking (1985), Kegworth air crash (1989), Sumburgh helicopter crash (1986) and the 7/7 bombings (2005) which represents only occurrence since 1980s with more than 40 fatalities. That said 3 worst since WWII occurred from March 1987-December 1988.

Improved transport safety, no mines, etc.

Marchioness boat was 1989

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Jimmy McGoverns excellent docudrama on Hillsborough is on ITV shortly

For those in their 20's and younger this YouTube film by ESPN is the best piece of film on the disaster and subsequent cover up

Very in depth and pulls no punches, if a somewhat difficult watch at times

http://youtu.be/sdfcxGKIyog

Edited by Tom Rogic
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Jimmy McGoverns excellent docudrama on Hillsborough is on ITV shortly

For those in their 20's and younger this YouTube film by ESPN is the best piece of film on the disaster and subsequent cover up

Very in depth and pulls no punches, if a somewhat difficult watch at times

http://youtu.be/sdfcxGKIyog

Watched this, and the Hillsborough docudrama earlier in the week. Very harrowing watch the both of them.

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Princess Victoria ferry sinking is not well known because it was the same night as the great North Sea\Canvey Island flood. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_flood_of_1953

 

Living in Northern Ireland the Princess Victoria is one of the ones I do know about. (I was 2 months old when it happened.)

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The question was asked further above why this would be different from any other matchday at Hillsborough.

There was no cordons/little cowd control this time,with a very large support-it can be imagined how bad this was and why it was different was my point.

Liverpool asked to change ends as there had been some crushing and discomfort the previous year.

I believe it's on record that one of the young lads who died turned to his dad and commented "Oh no, not that ground again" when they heard the 1989 semi was at Hillsborough. There is no evidence for ticketless fans.

On alcohol-you'll be aware that blood alcohol levels were taken from all those who died-including a ten year old-none had been drinking to excess. Pretty sure there are no reports of drunken behaviour in the crowd, but I might be corrected on that.

Some things just fade from public perception in time, I suppose.

If you stopped 100 people in the street how many would even know of the sinking of Princess Victoria.

Seems a slightly macabre list but I suppose it also puts things in context.

I've excluded things like the London smog, heatwaves / coldsnaps, the Troubles, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disasters_in_Great_Britain_and_Ireland_by_death_toll

270 - Lockerbie airliner bombing

193 - Herald of Free Enterprise ferry sinking

167 - Piper Alpha oil platform fire

144 - Aberfan slag heap disaster

133 - Princess Victoria ferry sinking (91 died elsewhere at sea and 307 on land by North Sea floods caused by the same storm)

118 - Staines air crash

112 - Harrow rail crash

104 - Whitehaven mine disaster

96 - Hillsborough stadium crush

90 - Lewisham rail crash

81 - Easington mine disaster

80 - Llandow air crash

80 - Creswell mine disaster

75 - sinking of HMS Affray

72 - Stockport air crash

66 - Ibrox stadium crush

64 - sinking of HMS Truculent

56 - Valley Parade stadium fire

56 - 7/7 London bombings

55 - Manchester air crash

51 - Marchioness pleasureboat sinking

50 - Summerland leisure centre fire

49 - Hither Green rail crash

47 - Samtampa steamship sinking

47 - Auchengeich mine disaster

47 - Kegworth air crash

45 - Aberbeeg mine disaster

45 - Isle of Wight flying boat crash

45 - Sumburgh helicopter crash

43 - Bourne End rail crash

43 - Moorgate underground crash

41 - Little Baldon air crash

Had never heard of most of them, I'm going through to Staines tomorrow to go to the cinema and was completely unaware such a disaster had happened so close, with the amount of air traffic that goes overhead it probably shouldn't be as surprising.

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Just reading up on this after a few days. Pretty sure 'Tom Rogic' is 'There is a light'... Exact same posting styles. Check out the weird lack of full stops at the end of the posts.

If they are the same then Magee has been arguing with himself AGAIN.

How very odd.

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Just reading up on this after a few days. Pretty sure 'Tom Rogic' is 'There is a light'... Exact same posting styles. Check out the weird lack of full stops at the end of the posts.

If they are the same then Magee has been arguing with himself AGAIN.

How very odd.

Rogic and I couldn't be any different (aside from the lack of full stops). Im sure he is just as "thrilled" as me by the fact you think we're the same person!

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An updated (to take the inquests into account) version of the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary was on BBC 2 last night and obviously the iPlayer now. Probably the stand out piece of film/television on the disaster, with a notable contribution from the indefatigable Phil Scraton. Anyone with a previously held opinion on Hillsborough should be urged to watch this.

More generally, I've been involved in the debates on Hillsborough since the forum came into being and the sea change in opinion has been huge. It wasn't trolling a decade plus ago, it was a deep-seated believe that the fans were to blame. Anyone who tried to present an alternative view was simply a Scouse sympathiser. Thankfully the roles are very much reversed now and those who continue to peddle mistruths are seen for what they are.

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