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Hillsborough debate

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There's fighting your corner and whoring yourself to the press. Justice can be fought away from the glare of the media

 

The BBC on Anne Williams, one of the most vocal and recognisable Hillsborough campaigners and the subject of a new documentary on the families' quest for justice:

 

"Anne Williams was convinced 15-year-old Kevin was alive after 3.15pm on the day he died. Incensed by the inquest verdict, she set out to find out the truth. She traced people who tried to help him, including a special constable who recalled Kevin saying the word "mum" at 4pm. In a 20-year campaign for fresh inquests, she earned praise for her fierce determination. One MP said: "Her relentless pursuit of justice for her son personified the unyielding bond of a mother's love for her child.""

 

What's your opinion of Anne, Thereisalight..,?

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So Anne was wrong to pursue justice in the manner she did, in your opinion? 

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Again, for the millionth time, I have no issue with their persuit of justice, just the in-your-face nature of it

 

How exactly does one campaign for anything without being "in your face"?

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I was asking a question, hence the question mark.

You think I'm stupid because I have a different opinion than you? So you base my intelligence on one factor without knowing anything about me. Wow that smacks of someone oozing intelligence

 

I was actually pointing out that you put a full stop after a question mark.

 

I don't think you are stupid because you have a different opinion to me. I think you are purposely on the wind up here as I don't see how it is possible to criticise the families at all. If people want to blame the fans then that is up to them - and I am certainly not accusing you of that - but to criticise the families who were fighting against what was essentially a state sponsored cover up and who had no other choice than to do everything they could is difficult to comprehend. Not to mention that the campaign is bigger than the families. It took in politicians, athletes, celebrities and everyday people - it was as much a movement of people fighting for their beliefs as any other political or social movement.

Edited by NewBlue

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How exactly does one campaign for anything without being "in your face"?

 

presumably by writing lots of letters in green ink to the MP and the local newspaper, on pages torn out of a school jotter.

 

then again that in itself- actually writing words on a page- might be seen as a bit aggressive.

 

It's a toughie.

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As far as I can see they've always carried themselves with dignity. Bit cheesy at times maybe but actually we're taking about kids dying here. How much of a dick do you need to be to get hung up on this?

There are fucking dozens of news items that get saturation coverage (I'm thinking royal births n shit) but this story? Not a chance.

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Over the course of yesterday I had been thinking about this thread and what I wanted to say about it. When I came in and read it I was afforded a chance to reflect on that, having seen different views from posters here which made the whole thing - specifically my perception of it in the time I've been alive and conscious of the event and the repercussions of it - which generally made sense to me and seemed reasonable.

There's lots of things which influence my perception of Hillsborough which might vary from others here and elsewhere. It happened before I was born. It happened under a government with football-specific policies I've never lived under. It involved footballing circumstances which haven't existed in my lifetime. Unlike previous disasters like Ibrox it was broadcast in much greater detail on TV, making it much more graphic and impactful to the people who saw it and see it now. The subsequent media coverage of it heightened emotions of people involved in it on all sides.

With all of this in consideration, I've never really had any opinion of it which suspected any truth in the official version of events. Watching video of it like those posted in this thread is clear enough. With the new, genuine official reports which have come out over the years the cause is quite obvious again. Completely inept policing and management of the situation, coupled with a facility which had previously proven unsuitable for purpose. To me that explains the anger that's lingers in the decades since. Not the circumstances which could have been understood if not excused, but the reaction to it which was an abhorrent thing for the responsible people to do.

With the assorted inquests and campaigns and displays which have been more prominent in the last view years, I've never really paid much attention to it as a result of all of the above. To me, it happened, the reason it happened was obvious, the reaction to it was a web of self-preserving lies, and there was an ongoing movement by those who lost family and friends on that day to have some sort of official recognition of this. Yesterday, and today, I saw the extent to which that vindication was required by the people involved. And not knowing what it's like to be in that situation, having this realised by P&B, fine. I watched, and that was that.

Yesterday when I was watching the telly before going to work they were interviewing a police officer who was at Hillsborough that day. She cried as she described - with CCTV of it overlaid - the screams of a ten year old boy she was trying to pull out of the crush. He died. This morning, the father of one of the victims was on, sharing his disgust at the police who were all walking about doing nothing and pulling supporters out of the empty pens they were trying to get into to avoid the crowd.

Outside the court (or wherever it was) yesterday when you had a group of them on the steps, with scarves in the air singing You'll Never Walk Alone, that to me summed up why people can somehow manage to be unsypmathetic towards people who had relatives killed by negligence and then seen them blamed for it over the following decades. At this, the moment of absolute irreversible vindication, there's a full-on public display of celebration. There's one woman in the crowd jabbing her finger in the air to every word like it's the last song at a wedding. The release of emotions have built up and festered over so long is understandable, a collective sense of injustice which manifests itself in such flagrant self-interest isn't something which can easily make an outside observer feel sympathetic to their cause.

I hope that the subsequent repercussions are wide-ranging and appropriate. I hope the survivors, the people who were there that day accused of attacking police, the victims' families, I hope they all get appropriate compensation. They deserve it. I hope too that sufficient changes are made to the systems which allowed this culture to exist and do the damage it did (though like DA Baracus am far too cynical to believe it can extend to modern day football and its fans). I also think however that the fervour of the people involved and the injustice which has persisted for so long has shifted the focus of what these enquiries and inquests should be about - the victims - and become lost in a frenzy of frequent and ever increasingly hysteric displays of public action.

I should add, independent of any campaigner's action, the media coverage of it is truly nauseating and contributes to this effect. The aforementioned programme where I saw the police officer talking, you've got Dan Walker presenting it live from an empty cathedral at half seven in the morning talking in this grave voice. It just seems inappropriate to me, and contributes to the sense that this is something is is seen as a cause for celebration rather than justification. I also won't call you a fascist if you think what I've said is wrong.

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Over the course of yesterday I had been thinking about this thread and what I wanted to say about it. When I came in and read it I was afforded a chance to reflect on that, having seen different views from posters here which made the whole thing - specifically my perception of it in the time I've been alive and conscious of the event and the repercussions of it - which generally made sense to me and seemed reasonable.

There's lots of things which influence my perception of Hillsborough which might vary from others here and elsewhere. It happened before I was born. It happened under a government with football-specific policies I've never lived under. It involved footballing circumstances which haven't existed in my lifetime. Unlike previous disasters like Ibrox it was broadcast in much greater detail on TV, making it much more graphic and impactful to the people who saw it and see it now. The subsequent media coverage of it heightened emotions of people involved in it on all sides.

With all of this in consideration, I've never really had any opinion of it which suspected any truth in the official version of events. Watching video of it like those posted in this thread is clear enough. With the new, genuine official reports which have come out over the years the cause is quite obvious again. Completely inept policing and management of the situation, coupled with a facility which had previously proven unsuitable for purpose. To me that explains the anger that's lingers in the decades since. Not the circumstances which could have been understood if not excused, but the reaction to it which was an abhorrent thing for the responsible people to do.

With the assorted inquests and campaigns and displays which have been more prominent in the last view years, I've never really paid much attention to it as a result of all of the above. To me, it happened, the reason it happened was obvious, the reaction to it was a web of self-preserving lies, and there was an ongoing movement by those who lost family and friends on that day to have some sort of official recognition of this. Yesterday, and today, I saw the extent to which that vindication was required by the people involved. And not knowing what it's like to be in that situation, having this realised by P&B, fine. I watched, and that was that.

Yesterday when I was watching the telly before going to work they were interviewing a police officer who was at Hillsborough that day. She cried as she described - with CCTV of it overlaid - the screams of a ten year old boy she was trying to pull out of the crush. He died. This morning, the father of one of the victims was on, sharing his disgust at the police who were all walking about doing nothing and pulling supporters out of the empty pens they were trying to get into to avoid the crowd.

Outside the court (or wherever it was) yesterday when you had a group of them on the steps, with scarves in the air singing You'll Never Walk Alone, that to me summed up why people can somehow manage to be unsypmathetic towards people who had relatives killed by negligence and then seen them blamed for it over the following decades. At this, the moment of absolute irreversible vindication, there's a full-on public display of celebration. There's one woman in the crowd jabbing her finger in the air to every word like it's the last song at a wedding. The release of emotions have built up and festered over so long is understandable, a collective sense of injustice which manifests itself in such flagrant self-interest isn't something which can easily make an outside observer feel sympathetic to their cause.

I hope that the subsequent repercussions are wide-ranging and appropriate. I hope the survivors, the people who were there that day accused of attacking police, the victims' families, I hope they all get appropriate compensation. They deserve it. I hope too that sufficient changes are made to the systems which allowed this culture to exist and do the damage it did (though like DA Baracus am far too cynical to believe it can extend to modern day football and its fans). I also think however that the fervour of the people involved and the injustice which has persisted for so long has shifted the focus of what these enquiries and inquests should be about - the victims - and become lost in a frenzy of frequent and ever increasingly hysteric displays of public action.

I should add, independent of any campaigner's action, the media coverage of it is truly nauseating and contributes to this effect. The aforementioned programme where I saw the police officer talking, you've got Dan Walker presenting it live from an empty cathedral at half seven in the morning talking in this grave voice. It just seems inappropriate to me, and contributes to the sense that this is something is is seen as a cause for celebration rather than justification. I also won't call you a fascist if you think what I've said is wrong.

I think that is an excellent post. I totally agree with it.

Edited by Jambomo

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Very thoughtful and considered post.

On the media overload point, I think the same can be applied to loads of different events - and in my view is therefore not a Hillsborough thing.

In terms of individual police actions, I've seen quite a few cases where relatives have been full of praise for individual officers.

I also don't get the hatred for the rendition of 'you'll never walk along'. That song is much, much bigger than a football song. It's become something much more spiritual. The spirit of that group of people is as strong as any possibly could be. They sung a song. Why the fuss?

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Very thoughtful and considered post.

On the media overload point, I think the same can be applied to loads of different events - and in my view is therefore not a Hillsborough thing.

In terms of individual police actions, I've seen quite a few cases where relatives have been full of praise for individual officers.

I also don't get the hatred for the rendition of 'you'll never walk along'. That song is much, much bigger than a football song. It's become something much more spiritual. The spirit of that group of people is as strong as any possibly could be. They sung a song. Why the fuss?

A combination of the factors I mentioned already, probably. I live in Glasgow. To me, You'll Never Walk Alone is a football song. Particularly with regard to Liverpool FC it's a song which is held as some sort of unique. transcendent joining together of a people... followed by 90 minutes of absolute silence. In that regard it feels more like a resigned obligation that they go through on a regular basis because it's just what they do.

The people after the verdict delivery the other day, they're holding up Liverpool scarves as they're singing. It's something which is to entwined with the football club for me to think it something spontaneous or genuine.

I would add though that whatever cultural or social influences the song has are usurped by things similar to the media coverage I mentioned. Shite like that Celtic statement certainly cheapens any genuine symbolic meaning behind the song, regardless of how worthless their input actually is (and it really, really is).

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Some folk will always take things too far, over the top etc. Like you pointed out I can definitely understand how things like that bristle with people. But that shouldn't take away from the bigger point of what's happening.

It's like a big celebrity death. The overreaction on social media can sometimes make me hate the poor bugger that's deid.

There's a good wee bt sport documentary about the song. I think Hillsborough changed that song in relation to Liverpool as a city. It pulled people together in the darkest of times and was played at most of the funerals.

Edited by pandarilla

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Got to laugh at people calling me thick for having a different opinion than them. How very fascist of you

Maybe, just maybe, the reason that "justice" has been eventually started to be seen is precisely because the families have been so vocal and "in your face"?

The establishment had their enquiry 26 years ago in the Taylor report as well as the original inquests, it's simply because the families and their supporters refused to be silent and "media whored" as you call it, that we have seen the recent judgement of unlawful killing.

Now, if their publicity offends you a great deal, I'd suggest switching channels, skimming past reports in newspapers & not commenting on forums as a way of ignoring this big news.

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Every so often there's a thread on P&B that goes beyond the joking and sarky remarks and even the usual level of poor taste and becomes something more toxic. Sadly this is such a thread.

Posters still trying to blame the fans after their exoneration or the families for keeping this fight in the public eye when it was that very tactic that led to the present outcome are fairly despicable.

This, exactly this!

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A combination of the factors I mentioned already, probably. I live in Glasgow. To me, You'll Never Walk Alone is a football song.

Yet think of what it was written for in the original musical "Carousel" - a lament to a guy who dies in a bungled attempt at mugging someone.

You have to wonder why they (Celtic & Liverpool) chose it?

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Yet think of what it was written for in the original musical "Carousel" - a lament to a guy who dies in a bungled attempt at mugging someone.

You have to wonder why they (Celtic & Liverpool) chose it?

It was sung at lots of grounds back in the day, it's the crap between the ugly sisters that rendered it useless to the other fanbases in Scotland..

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thereisalight, given the fact that this made national press on the day of the disaster, the police and governing bodies used national press to label the fans as the culprits of the disaster, do you not think its apt to have the campaign as one in the national press?

 

 

The football club, and its supporters naturally gave support to the families, which as a result will come up on TV screens because of the scale of LFC and the league they play in.

 

Although I do understand why you might think the way you do, when you take into account these things above and the fact that none of the victims families are likely to pursue a job on TV after all of this, I would be sure this was all done for the correct reasons.

 

If a family member of mine died at a football match in these circumstances, and the evidence that was shown in the likes of  Anne Williams and Margaret Aspinal's cases, and 15 year old boy's dead bodies were being tested for alcohol in their bloodstream, when the Sun newspaper and Kelvin Mackenzie accused fans of pickpocketing victims and urinating on emergency services that were trying to help and when there was a clear cover up, I'd be looking at getting national recognition for the injustice that occurred on that day. 

 

It isn't just a victory for these families either, I think its much more than that. 

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thereisalight, given the fact that this made national press on the day of the disaster, the police and governing bodies used national press to label the fans as the culprits of the disaster, do you not think its apt to have the campaign as one in the national press?

 

 

The football club, and its supporters naturally gave support to the families, which as a result will come up on TV screens because of the scale of LFC and the league they play in.

 

Although I do understand why you might think the way you do, when you take into account these things above and the fact that none of the victims families are likely to pursue a job on TV after all of this, I would be sure this was all done for the correct reasons.

 

If a family member of mine died at a football match in these circumstances, and the evidence that was shown in the likes of  Anne Williams and Margaret Aspinal's cases, and 15 year old boy's dead bodies were being tested for alcohol in their bloodstream, when the Sun newspaper and Kelvin Mackenzie accused fans of pickpocketing victims and urinating on emergency services that were trying to help and when there was a clear cover up, I'd be looking at getting national recognition for the injustice that occurred on that day. 

 

It isn't just a victory for these families either, I think its much more than that. 

 

Thank you for that.

I'm not sure I would have had the mental fortitude the families and survivors have shown.

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It was sung at lots of grounds back in the day, it's the crap between the ugly sisters that rendered it useless to the other fanbases in Scotland..

There's a video of Motherwell fans singing it when we won the first division back in the eighties.

It wouldn't get sung now.

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