Hillsborough debate

[Sergeant Wilson]

I'm not sure how you think from floor level, before you enter a stand you can know if it was overcrowded or not. More importantly once you're in the crowd, once you are in the crush you'd have no choice as to what to do. Unless you think someone all the way at the back, outside the ground, somehow knew there was a problem?

All of these types of reviews are done in hindsight. But as I approach and enter I would have hoped I would be able to see that the build up of people was becoming dangerous and not continue. If people behind do continue and I'm carried in that flow I'm blameless, but what about those that did continue?

It might not be criminal, but it wasn't very wise.

[williemillersmoustache]

All of these types of reviews are done in hindsight. But as I approach and enter I would have hoped I would be able to see that the build up of people was becoming dangerous and not continue. If people behind do continue and I'm carried in that flow I'm blameless, but what about those that did continue?

It might not be criminal, but it wasn't very wise.

 

I just don't think any of us are in a position to know, or even strongly suspect that any fan did that. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

I just don't think any of us are in a position to know, or even strongly suspect that any fan did that.

People were trying to get in, that stands to reason. Blame probably isn't the right word, but at some stage personal responsibility must be a factor. Many people continued to try to get in. We're there others who looked towards the ground and thought better of it?

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

I don't know if there were more tickets than spaces, 1/2 that terrace was virtually empty and not all the turnstiles were in operation.

Part of the reason that Sheffield Wednesday were found culpable was a that all these changes and fences had been added to the ground, and they had never bothered to recalculate the capacity. A normal sellout crowd would have been dangerously overcrowded anyway.

[Falcor Roar]

It might not pass the threshold of criminality, but people continued to go into areas that were overcrowded, was there a rush near the kick off, was there no pushing at all?

As I said, they probably couldn't anticipate what followed, but a crush happened. In hindsight the sensible thing to do was not try to get in.

 

The part of the access to the stand is a bit of a blind corner. As far as I can make out, people at the back would not necessarily have had a good sightline to the crush at the turnstiles. Some police radios weren't working and the usual cordons were not in force so I don't think there was any way for people at the back to know. 

 

The police have been found at fault but you've got to remember that the society we lived in back then was different and we are judging the situation by our standards.

The climate at the time was that football fans were all uncontrollable thugs who literally needed caged in therefore concerns over security took precedence over safety. That's a product of the thatcher government, actual behaviour and other factors. So choices that they made that day would probably have been made by most other police forces around the country.

 

I think this was a factor yes. The relationship between police forces around the country and working class people wasn't one of trust.

[Sergeant Wilson]

The part of the access to the stand is a bit of a blind corner. As far as I can make out, people at the back would not necessarily have had a good sightline to the crush at the turnstiles. Some police radios weren't working and the usual cordons were not in force so I don't think there was any way for people at the back to know.

Would they have been aware of crowds backing up and congestion forming immediately in front of them?

[Theo Snelders]

Thank you for the reply.

Manslaughter is a charge (or lesser verdict) which I'd imagine would be used if prosecutions come around.

I was referring more to phrase on the ruling, as putting "manslaughter" on it would have opened a real can of worms. Not arguing with the fact that the deaths occurred due to someone's actions, though - but if I'm hit by a bus then it's as a result of mine or the driver's actions - it's unlawful either way which makes me feel the phrase is a moot point.

 

Well I'm not sure, but I would guess they need to be careful with wording.

It's not their place to find guilt etc-but Operation Resolve is ongoing and will decide if a case needs to be answered/charges brought.

[The Holiday Song]

Feel a bit arsey asking this but it's a genuine question - at the time, how much did what happened at Heysel have an effect on people's opinions of the cause of Hillsborough?

[Ivo den Bieman]

I just feel that Hillsborough families maybe court (no pun intended) the media. Other tragic events at football stadiums where there has been people to blame like Bradford don't bang on about justice in the way that lot have

 

yes, why didn't they just sit down and shut up. good grief. what's wrong with you.

 

On Bradford, I assume that this story completely passed you by last year on the 30th anniversary of that awful fire.

[throbber]

Feel a bit arsey asking this but it's a genuine question - at the time, how much did what happened at Heysel have an effect on people's opinions of the cause of Hillsborough?

 

Absolutely - would have made it far easier to smear the supporters with hooligan behaviour. Impossible to say how they would have acted had it been another set of supporters obviously.

[Ivo den Bieman]

anyway, South Yorkshire police's chief constable has today been suspended and it looks like Theresa May is going to take serious action against the leadership of the contabulary. She is also considering a range of charges ranging from misconduct in public office and perjury to (potentially) manslaughter in relationship to those in charge at the time.

 

set to run and run this story.

[Sergeant Wilson]

anyway, South Yorkshire police's chief constable has today been suspended and it looks like Theresa May is going to take serious action against the leadership of the contabulary. She is also considering a range of charges ranging from misconduct in public office and perjury to (potentially) manslaughter in relationship to those in charge at the time.

set to run and run this story.

Action has to be taken against the police but I find the band wagon jumpers among MPs a bit distasteful. They want action now but sat back for years and let others do the donkey work.

[54_and_counting]

As previously noted, Liverpool asked to change ends after crushing the previous year- and that was with crowd control in place.

 

so in 1988, with an experienced matchday controller in charge of crowd control, the liverpool fans were involved in a crush, then in 1989 with an inexperienced matchday controller and without adequate crowd control, the liverpool fans were again involved in a crush, only this time it resulted in a disaster due to the police reactions differing from the year before

 

2 years in a row the liverpool fans were involved in a crush yet they have been cleared of any blame, even the slightest part, even accidental blame

 

Thats the jury's conclusion, but i dont agree with it, i just dont see how the same set of fans can be involved in a  crush at the same end of the same ground 2 years in a row, but then told, your behaviour didnt contribute

[throbber]

53 - there was crushing in the Leppings end game with Spurs supporters, very similar scenes, fans having to spill out onto the pitch and accounts saying it was by far the worst experience they have had at a match day. Could have been about 85.

[MarkoRaj]

so in 1988, with an experienced matchday controller in charge of crowd control, the liverpool fans were involved in a crush, then in 1989 with an inexperienced matchday controller and without adequate crowd control, the liverpool fans were again involved in a crush, only this time it resulted in a disaster due to the police reactions differing from the year before

2 years in a row the liverpool fans were involved in a crush yet they have been cleared of any blame, even the slightest part, even accidental blame

Thats the jury's conclusion, but i dont agree with it, i just dont see how the same set of fans can be involved in a crush at the same end of the same ground 2 years in a row, but then told, your behaviour didnt contribute

Except it wasn't just Liverpool fans that had been crushed there you complete moron. There had been crushes going back to 1980 involving different sets of fans.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

53 - there was crushing in the Leppings end game with Spurs supporters, very similar scenes, fans having to spill out onto the pitch and accounts saying it was by far the worst experience they have had at a match day. Could have been about 85.

 

And this from the Newcastle fan piece I quoted before:

 

A few years before the disaster I was in the central pen at the Leppings Lane End, packed in so tightly that breathing became an effort, my feet were off the floor and some of us were sensing the danger.

Thankfully, we were near enough to the tunnel to fight our way out and make our way, despite the non-existent signage, into the side pens which were virtually empty. It had been a death-trap for years.

[Falcor Roar]

It's not difficult to grasp that it is the Leppings Lane enclosure which is the constant factor.

 

[throbber]

Its difficult to grasp for people who have it in for Liverpool supporters anyway, all you need to do is view the footage outside and inside the ground and have a wee look at Leppings lane on google maps and try and imagine yourself in a crowd and you can understand the severity of the situation without needing to conclude it was the fault of drunken people who were doing a bit of pushing. 

[Tom Rogic]

so in 1988, with an experienced matchday controller in charge of crowd control, the liverpool fans were involved in a crush, then in 1989 with an inexperienced matchday controller and without adequate crowd control, the liverpool fans were again involved in a crush, only this time it resulted in a disaster due to the police reactions differing from the year before

2 years in a row the liverpool fans were involved in a crush yet they have been cleared of any blame, even the slightest part, even accidental blame

Thats the jury's conclusion, but i dont agree with it, i just dont see how the same set of fans can be involved in a crush at the same end of the same ground 2 years in a row, but then told, your behaviour didnt contribute

Leeds fans at that end in 87 were involved in a crush

Tottenham fans at that end in 1981 were involved in a crush

See a pattern here?

Or maybe like some you just wont budge on your preconceived opinion?

[The Equalizer]

Is anyone watching the SSN coverage? Kenny Dalglish reading footprints and Andy Burnham fobbing into his wanking sock while playing to the gallery? Jesus wept.