Hillsborough debate

[roverthemoon]

All of which is undoubtedly true, and something which nobody here is denying. I'll repeat what I said earlier, the efforts to absolve blame and to deny any personal liability for one's own actions is glaring on both sides.

Which is the fundamental point. The folk who were killed's 'own actions' were arriving early and standing near the front at a football match. So why they or their families are being subjected to so much bile on here for simply looking for some answers from a police force that lied about it's actions on the day is unfathomable.

[H_B]

So why they or their families are being subjected to so much bile on here for simply looking for some answers from a police force that lied about it's actions on the day is unfathomable.

Why aren't they looking for answers from the ignorant w****r fellow Liverpool fans?

[roverthemoon]

This should be good.

Are you claiming the fans were not partially to blame?

If not, would you like to take this opportunity to condemn those fans who were responsible, or well, irresponsible really?

I'd happily condemn anyone who acts a fuckwit inside or outside a football ground. Ultimately crowds aren't responsible for dealing with crowd safety though. It's the club, police and stewards.

All fairly irrelevant as this debate and campaign is about the police and authorities hiding information and covering up their actions.

[H_B]

Ultimately crowds aren't responsible for dealing with crowd safety though.

Wrong. Everyone has a personal responsibility to behave in an appropriate manner.

All fairly irrelevant as this debate and campaign is about the police and authorities hiding information and covering up their actions.

Only because of the agendas of those pushing their particular version of "debate".

That's the point of many of the posts on this thread. If those involved wish to push a "wah, bad police bad police" agenda, then don't expect those of us neutral to support you. GTF.

[roverthemoon]

Why aren't they looking for answers from the ignorant w****r fellow Liverpool fans?

Ok on this moronic note I'm out. I'd suggest reading up about what this debate and campaign is actually about if I thought it would help but I doubt it will.

[roverthemoon]

Wrong. Everyone has a personal responsibility to behave in an appropriate manner.

Only because of the agendas of those pushing their particular version of "debate".

That's the point of many of the posts on this thread. If those involved wish to push a "wah, bad police bad police" agenda, then don't expect those of us neutral to support you. GTF.

Wow you're so cool. Well done you.

[H_B]

Ok on this moronic note I'm out. I'd suggest reading up about what this debate and campaign is actually about if I thought it would help but I doubt it will.

Why is asking the Liverpool fans who contributed to this catastrophe to explain their actions and justify their behaviour "moronic"?

I assume it's not moronic to ask police officials to explain their actions and decisions taken on the day?

They I assume have personal responsibility, but w****r Liverpool fans get to absolve themselves of blame totally?

Seems fair...

[H_B]

The fundamental question is :- "Do those involved in this and other campaigns want a debate on the entire issue of what happened on that day, or just the bits they want to cherry pick?"

[bogsideloyal]

Why cant liverpool fans be like bradford city fans, of course bradford city fans will always remember the dead from the bradford fire, but they manage to accept what happened was a mistake it will never happen again in this country and have moved on. If liverpool fans want closure why cant they accept it was a tragic accident and will never happen again, then they will have closure. What good is their witchunt against the police, government etc. ever going to achieve?

Anyone know how much is this costing the taxpayer?

[Sweet Pete]

The word "closure" appears so many times in this thread that it has lost all meaning.

[H_B]

Again to those on here that are blaming the fans I would suggest reading the taylor report, Taylor did apportion a small part to the LFC fans but the vast majority goes to SYP and in particular the match commander David Duckenfield and Bernard Murray

I have read the Taylor report, not that I agree with all of his conclusions, but still. And I agree with you.

It's quite clear to me that the institutional failings deserve a greater degree of the blame. I have no issues with those who say "The fans have to take their share of the blame, but the decisions of the police and other authorities were greater causal factors".

I repeat though, the first part of that sentence is something I have never heard come out of Liverpool. Not once. That's a problem.

I don't want to speak on behalf of others, but I suspect that's what gets peoples' backs up. Always with the blame apportioning, unless it's directed at their own fanbase, when the shutters come up and "deflect, deflect, deflect" sirens come on.

Edited October 19, 2011 by H_B

[H_B]

The crowds are not responsible for their own actions? Have you completely lost the plot?

Indeed. A spectacularly stupid statement. As anyone who has ever been in a crowd of any size will know.

[Desert Nomad]

Now that eclipses anything you consider stupid on this thread. The crowds are not responsible for their own actions? Have you completely lost the plot?

Indeed. A spectacularly stupid statement. As anyone who has ever been in a crowd of any size will know.

I don`t think the poster put across the point he was trying to make very well(I`m assuming).

I don`t know what age the majority of posters on this thread are, but crowd control, safety, etc was very different to what it is now. Just take a look at any videos from the 80`s on Youtube of English terraces packed full, with swaying everywhere. I can even remember it coming out of Tannadice when I was younger, when crowds of over 20,000 packed into Tannadice. Hampden for the 88 cup final against Celtic was also ridiculous. The attitude of Police towards all fans was of utter disdain, mostly due to the huge hooliganism problems at the time. I`m not saying that the behaviour of Liverpool fans was acceptable, but for the time crowd congestion was nothing out of the ordinary.

Here`s an article by Peter Hooton of The Farm recalling his memories of the day Heroes of Hillsborough

[H_B]

I don`t think the poster put across the point he was trying to make very well(I`m assuming).

No, he's just illustrated a point many Liverpool fans have made regarding this tragedy.

Zero personal responsibility. Blame the bad men who didn't stop us doing these things.

[quote[i`m not saying that the behaviour of Liverpool fans was acceptable, but for the time crowd congestion was nothing out of the ordinary.

Here`s an article by Peter Hooton of The Farm recalling his memories of the day Heroes of Hillsborough

Im in my late 30s. I was attending football matches at the time Hillsborough happened. Including terraced grounds.

As I said on another thread, i was also in Edinburgh at New Year the year of the crushes, which led to it becoming ticketed. It's a horrific experience. And the behaviour of other humans in the crowd is always always always a massive contributor to any crush.

Crowd congestion is still nothing out of the ordinary. But you absolutely require your fellow crowd members to behave in the correct manner. If they don't, even with the very best of planning, crushes can happen if people behave as ignorant savages, who decide their own persoanal desire to gain entry to a venue or a location overrides your right to be safe.

This is what happened with some Liverpool fans. They decided they wanted entry. f**k anything else. f**k the people in front of them also waiting to get in. Why did that matter? The game was about to start. they wanted to see it. Shame on them. Disgraceful.

Now that's not to say they knew or suspected their bawbaggery would lead to the consequences it did. Of course they didn't. That's often the case. Unintended consequences of inappropriate behaviour.

Much as the police also didn't intend their decisions to lead to the disaster they did. And make no mistake, they had hard decisions to make that day. They made bad ones, but the alternatives weren't great either.

Edited October 19, 2011 by H_B

[Desert Nomad]

No, he's just illustrated a point many Liverpool fans have made regarding this tragedy.

Zero personal responsibility. Blame the bad men who didn't stop us doing these things.

Im in my late 30s. I was attending football matches at the time Hillsborough happened. Including terraced grounds.

As I said on another thread, i was also in Edinburgh at New Year the year of the crushes, which led to it becoming ticketed. It's a horrific experience. And the behaviour of other humans in the crowd is always always always a massive contributor to any crush.

Crowd congestion is still nothing out of the ordinary. But you absolutely require your fellow crowd members to behave in the correct manner. If they don't, even with the very best of planning, crushes can happen if people behave as ignorant savages, who decide their own persoanal desire to gain entry to a venue or a location overrides your right to be safe.

This is what happened with some Liverpool fans. They decided they wanted entry. f**k anything else. f**k the people in front of them also waiting to get in. Why did that matter? The game was about to start. they wanted to see it. Shame on them. Disgraceful.

Now that's not to say they knew or suspected their bawbaggery would lead to the consequences it did. Of course they didn't. That's often the case. Unintended consequences of inappropriate behaviour.

Much as the police also didn't intend their decisions to lead to the disaster they did. And make no mistake, they had hard decisions to make that day. They made bad ones, but the alternatives weren't great either.

Sticking a couple of coppers in front of the tunnel & directing fans into the side paddocks doesn`t require intelligence of the highest order. Neither does setting up a corden away from the turnstiles, which only ticketed fans could pass through as seemed to have happened the previous year. Liverpool fans for right or wrong already had a reputation, surely policing them would require special attention?

[H_B]

Neither does setting up a corden away from the turnstiles, which only ticketed fans could pass through as seemed to have happened the previous year.

Yeah, again though, boarding up the windows of shops before the riot in London would have stopped them being smashed.

So do you blame the rioters or the shopkeepers?

As we've said, personal responsibility. Not that, if you read the Taylor report, ticketless fans were even the problem. It was fans arriving late to the area and not waiting patiently to get in (as reasonable humans do). There might have been some without tickets amongst them - I doubt from reading the accounts that it was a significant number.

The main decision which ultimately proved fatal was made with good intentions. Albeit it was a very bad one.

I've been to a number of games where I didn't get in til 15 or 20 minutes after kick off, due to late arrivals (road delays etc) or just inadequate numbers of turnstiles. All you do is wait your turn and grumble. You don't decide that what the situation really needs is you to scale some walls and get in that way. But then, I'm a responsible person, not a c**t.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

The word "closure" appears so many times in this thread that it has lost all meaning.

Closure isn't really the issue though, is it, the families wanted the truth and it looks like it will come out now possibly.

We all know that the lies from the authorities (you know, the people who we are all meant to trust in this country) started as soon as Duckenfield lied about how the gate was opened. That was around 3.15pm. What else was lied about and how far up the chain did the lie go in order to cover up the first lie?

Some of the truth I am sure some people will not like, whatever side you sit on, but it should come out regardless. Then, you just might see a climb down, from both sides.

The good news is is looks like News International and Kelvin MacKenzie will be investigated as well for the lies that they have never apologized for.

[H_B]

We all know that the lies from the authorities (you know, the people who we are all meant to trust in this country) started as soon as Duckenfield lied about how the gate was opened. That was around 3.15pm. What else was lied about and how far up the chain did the lie go in order to cover up the first lie?

It was actually similar to the De Menezes situation. i.e. a tissue of lies from police officers, which just don't hold up when put under any scrutiny.

The lies would have been uncovered far sooner if Hillsborough happened a month ago rather than when it did.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

I think the difference is the lie started form the police officer in charge of the whole operation on the day. That and the fact that the country had just come off the back of the miners strikes, Derek Hatton, football hooliganism and every thing else that was happening under Thatcher.

The timing of the event under these circumstances, the policing and no doubt the the culture of the time all contributed to what happened. It is the official cover up by, in my opinion, the highest office in the land that needs to be divulged. If I remember correctly, her press secretary Bernand Ingham wasn't slow at pointing the finger at Liverpool fans.

Like someone else said, if it had been proven that Liverpool fans were to blame, these papers would have been released years ago. Time will tell now, I guess.

[H_B]

I think the difference is the lie started form the police officer in charge of the whole operation on the day.

True.