MotownClic Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 have a think yourself and read up on it...before the stand became full fans had already forced their way in ..and avoiding security ran into the crowd( or do you think they forced their way in then just stood at the back?) only later with more and more forcing their way in did the disaster happen so we will never know if everyone who died was copletely innocent. Why don't you read the report? You clearly haven't. The only fact for me that counts is 96 men, women and children went to a football match and ended up dead. Why any football fan would'nt want to know the truth about that day is beyond me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 It's a little bit of a mis-service to desolve the polis of any blame, as there were obviously mistakes made. Mistakes that have completely changed the modern game. The really abhorrent thing though is apart from being responsible for the death of over 100+ fans in the space of a few years, Liverpool fans still think its OK to charge into grounds without tickets. Obviously they blame anyone but themselves for Heysel/Hillsborough but even on a personal level, what a c**t you'd have to be to go and take someones seat at a CL final. Like your analogy Mrs M, police didn't handle it well, but it was the fans absolute scumminess that gave put everyone in that situation in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Why don't you read the report? You clearly haven't. The only fact for me that counts is 96 men, women and children went to a football match and ended up dead. Why any football fan would'nt want to know the truth about that day is beyond me. the only facts that should concern you is what caused it and how it can be prevented again and where the blame lies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 It's a little bit of a mis-service to desolve the polis of any blame, as there were obviously mistakes made. Mistakes that have completely changed the modern game. The really abhorrent thing though is apart from being responsible for the death of over 100+ fans in the space of a few years, Liverpool fans still think its OK to charge into grounds without tickets. Obviously they blame anyone but themselves for Heysel/Hillsborough but even on a personal level, what a c**t you'd have to be to go and take someones seat at a CL final. Like your analogy Mrs M, police didn't handle it well, but it was the fans absolute scumminess that gave put everyone in that situation in the first place. totally agree 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotownClic Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 the only facts that should concern you is what caused it and how it can be prevented again and where the blame lies. Er Yes. Is'nt that what I said, where as you said you hoped the full blame lay at the Liverpool fans. Which is why I called you a twat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Why don't you read the report? You clearly haven't. The only fact for me that counts is 96 men, women and children went to a football match and ended up dead. Why any football fan would'nt want to know the truth about that day is beyond me. the liverpool fans don't want the actual truth though, they want to hear that 96 fans were martryrs to police incompetence and bias and that all liverpool fans were blameless. that is the only 'truth' they are interested in. i actually feel that this is some kind of labour plot to get one over the tories. the documents being released would have be written by thatcherite civil servants 20 years, i don't imagine they will be overly sympathetic to the lovable scousers. expect outrage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattydfc Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Liverpool fans are the worst. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I think people often see the word justice and make assumptions about aportioning blame and the like when really, what I suspect the families (the people that matter most in all of this) really want is all their questions answered so they can finally get some closure on this. Questions about why the coroner ruled everyone was dead by 3:15pm when accounts from doctors and other medical staff suggest otherwise. Questions about why CCTV tapes went missing or were wiped and questions about who fed the media information which all but one outlet have now apologised for. That is the sort of truth the families are seeking I suspect, not just about whether is was the police or the fans what done it, as it so often seems to boil down to when it's discussed on here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I think people often see the word justice and make assumptions about aportioning blame and the like when really, what I suspect the families (the people that matter most in all of this) really want is all their questions answered so they can finally get some closure on this. Questions about why the coroner ruled everyone was dead by 3:15pm when accounts from doctors and other medical staff suggest otherwise. Questions about why CCTV tapes went missing or were wiped and questions about who fed the media information which all but one outlet have now apologised for. That is the sort of truth the families are seeking I suspect, not just about whether is was the police or the fans what done it, as it so often seems to boil down to when it's discussed on here. I suspect they just want somebody to sue for some cash 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty_Boy Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 What the f**k is the "truth" and "justice" these scousers always moan about? utter crap and drivel posted on here, read the taylor report, if just 1 copper had shut the gates at the tunnell leading into pens 3&4 and thus fans had gone into the side pens it would not have happened. Doesnt matter how pissed the LFC fans were the police failed to manage the safety of the fans in the ground that day as the central pens were full at 2.10pm and the crush didnt happen until 2.55. South Yorkshire police not the fans are the murderers and yet David Duckenfield the match commander walks free JTF96 YNWA I think the 'truth' some people are looking for is that David Duckenfield was to blame and the 'justice' would be that he is hung, drawn and quartered (if he's still alive). I think people often see the word justice and make assumptions about aportioning blame and the like when really, what I suspect the families (the people that matter most in all of this) really want is all their questions answered so they can finally get some closure on this. Questions about why the coroner ruled everyone was dead by 3:15pm when accounts from doctors and other medical staff suggest otherwise. Questions about why CCTV tapes went missing or were wiped and questions about who fed the media information which all but one outlet have now apologised for. That is the sort of truth the families are seeking I suspect, not just about whether is was the police or the fans what done it, as it so often seems to boil down to when it's discussed on here. Spot on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) It's great news that the documents are finally being released about this, because there is no doubt in my mind that there were lies and cover-ups involved in the original inquiry. As has been mentioned before, it is also the case that some Liverpool fans were culpable too, and I think there is an element of the support who don't want to accept this. I reckon that failure to accept any blame will mean that the conspiracy stuff continues even after the release of this information. The stuff Radford posted about the 3:15pm cut-off time is very valid - that was a complete perversion of justice which was purely created to prevent any investigation into the delay in ambulances being allowed on to the field. I wasn't even born when Hillsborough happened, so I can't comment on the safety issues of stadia in the past, but I'm sure that there were many near-misses. I'm sure there were other occasions where the police were poorly prepared and negligent, and where fans of other clubs tried to get in to games without tickets and created crushes. However, given Liverpool's history at Heysel, you'd think that some of the supporters - many of whom would have been there in Brussels - would have had more sense than to push in from the back and cause a crush. And the galling thing is that you still saw Liverpool fans in Istanbul and Athens trying to get in without tickets and thinking it was all a big laugh. But if a crush had happened at either of those games, it would no doubt have been the fault of the Turkish or Greek police. I find this picture below sums up some of the Liverpool support. They have one banner saying "Don't Buy the Sun", which is obviously a valid protest at the paper's dreadful headlines in the aftermath of the disaster. However, they also find it acceptable to display a massive "Steaua Bucuresti 1986" banner, which is taunting Everton fans about the fact that Steaua won the Champions League in the year after Heysel. That was a year in which Everton would have competed had they not been banned in the aftermath of Liverpool hooligans killing people at Heysel. Edited October 18, 2011 by craigkillie 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 It's a little bit of a mis-service to desolve the polis of any blame, Where has anyone done this? This is standard practice on these threads incidentally. As soon as someone says "The fans were partly to blame" the "but so were the police" posts come in. Uhh, yes, that is indeed the case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Which is the kicker for me. I've always felt distant from other Liverpool fans in that I can't stand the finger pointing and lack of a dignified silence (or culpability / apology). I attended a couple of supporters group meetings a while back and have been to Anfield and felt out of place at both because (a) I wasn't wearing a ridiculous replica strip (not that Liverpool strips are more ridiculous than others, I just can't bring myself as an adult to wear a replica top) and (b) I don't subscribe to the proscribed collective opinions and have never been one for going with the crowd. It's the football and the football alone which I'm interested in (the same goes for Dumbarton as it happens, football fans as a general rule are cringeworthy cretins). I should say, as it has been missed by someone, evidently, that the failure to take responsibility for one's actions lies with both police and fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I should say, as it has been missed by someone, evidently, that the failure to take responsibility for one's actions lies with both police and fans. I agree entirely. It was not my intention to insinuate otherwise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 I think people often see the word justice and make assumptions about aportioning blame and the like when really, what I suspect the families (the people that matter most in all of this) really want is all their questions answered so they can finally get some closure on this. Questions about why the coroner ruled everyone was dead by 3:15pm when accounts from doctors and other medical staff suggest otherwise. Questions about why CCTV tapes went missing or were wiped and questions about who fed the media information which all but one outlet have now apologised for. That is the sort of truth the families are seeking I suspect, not just about whether is was the police or the fans what done it, as it so often seems to boil down to when it's discussed on here. Well put Radford and 100% correct IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) You do know that the current government are behind the release of documents and the previous labour government did next to f-all about it, which has been acknowledged by the labour chap Burnham? I think it's gone beyond party politics now, which seemed to be suggested by what (admittedly little) I saw last night. In any case, one memory I have of watching replays of that day (though may be hazy, don't like watching it) is that of people quite clearly pressed hard up against the fence struggling and the police merely feet away on the other side standing watching it. Why do you need word from some boy on a radio to take decisive action? You are, afterall, an emergency service? There was a police officer who was on duty that day, on the Spion Kop(Forest) end that afternoon, on the Keys and Gray show last week. He made it very clear that the officers on the day were not trained or even briefed on public safety, but only to prevent hooliganism. A sign of the times of course, but given known safety concerns over the Leppings Lane terrace, a bit short sighted. Edited October 18, 2011 by Desert Nomad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larbert_Par Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 As the popular Everton song goes, "You killed your own fans! You killed your own fans!" (to the tune of 'That's why we're champions', for anyone who wants to join in at home). I've been to watch Everton many times over the past 8 or so years, and I've never once heard this song being sung, or indeed anything to do with Hillsborough. Many Blues were effected by what happened in 1989, and most EFC fans find anything taunting the Red side about it quite distasteful. I think though that it is important that these files are released in regard to Hillsborough. I could not say for certainty who was to blame for the incident occurring, but what is important is that families who lost their loved ones are finally able to find some kind of closure and be able to grieve for their loss. I completely agree with Radford's post above; I believe the families just want their questions answered so they're able to find a bit of closure and grieve for their loss. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If the documents showed football fans as being massively culpable they'd have been released long, long ago. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If the documents showed football fans as being massively culpable they'd have been released long, long ago. Shame that principle doesn't appeared to have worked with the worst of the OF excesses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Is there not something a bit cringeworthy about all these Scottish folk who "support" Liverpool as well as their shitey Scottish team? D'ere more d'an a club. Stop startin'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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