saints1884 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Not read the thread. Little doubt that the police and authorities have fucked up badly and rightly have to take the blame for what they have done or caused. But my overriding feeling has always been that had the ticketless fans stayed at home then no one would have been killed in that manner, or indeed, at all. If i had been one of those who showed up without a valid ticket I'd still be wracked with guilt over having contributed to the death of 96 of my fellow supporters. Tragically, I'd wager that very few, if any, of them do. I take it you didn't watch the ITV documentry about this? They said that there where no fans that arrived at the ground without tickets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrforce1 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 TBH i think you're still p***ed off that the Liverpool fan Musketeer Gripweed slapped away your pathetic brothers-in-arms style attempt to jump on their bandwagon. Nae luck. LOL wut? Thinking seems to just confuse you. Nae luck.. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 LOL wut? Thinking seems to just confuse you. Nae luck.. As an attempted put-down that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwiznaeme Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 As an attempted put-down that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. His comment makes perfect sense to me but i wouldn't expect you to make sense of it being the simpleton that you are. Nae luck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngsy Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 You can't even spell an acronym correctly you illiterate f**k. As the popular Everton song goes, "You killed your own fans! You killed your own fans!" (to the tune of 'That's why we're champions', for anyone who wants to join in at home). The police may have made an error in not closing a gate but if a bunch of penniless, unwashed, ticketless Scousers hadn't breenged in without giving a f**k either way it wouldn't have mattered, would it? You are an out and out liar stating this. I can assure you and everyone else that Everton fans have never sung any song of this sort since the tragedy took place. Never have they demeaned the memory of these 96 victims as many of them were their friends, cousins and siblings. Everton fans have taken part in many memorials to the 96 in many different ways and have given unstinting support to the Hillsborough Justice Campaign. People can have their own opinion on Hillsborough,that's their right,but don't put up out and out blatant lies about it. I'm saying this as someone who lives not too far from the city and has experienced the depth of loss sustained by one family who lost their 14 year old son in the tragedy. This lad that i'm speaking of has got family that are Evertonians and for you to state such a thing is reprehensible. Also as a fan of a club who lost 66 fans in a similar tragedy you really should take a good look at yourself. There is a non-league club in the city,AFC Liverpool that carries a banner in remembrance of the victims of both disasters to every game they play so shame on you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I take it you didn't watch the ITV documentry about this? They said that there where no fans that arrived at the ground without tickets. And Santa Claus exists .... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Anyone else get the impression that Ayrforce1 and Itwiznaeme are one and the same? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Paul Middup, ex-SYP Police Federation Secretary. Was part of the briefing process to White's News agency in Sheffield, wrongly blaming supporters for the tragedy. Clearly felt he was acting on the authority of the Chief Constable. http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2012-09-13/video-1989-interview-with-south-yorkshire-police-federation/ He seems such a nice chap as well. The media are going to dig up more and more instances of police/political failure now. It does beg the question though, why wasn't it done before now? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I've never really entered this debate because most folk seem to be extremely defensive of one side of the argument, and everyone else is defensive of the other side of the argument To be honest I find it hard to defend the authorities. Hillsborough was a horrible choice of stadium by most accounts, and can you really blame the fans? I know if I travelled miles for a Semi Final I wouldn't not enter the stadium, especially since nobody knew what was actually happening until you were in. Think we all know the noise that gets generated before a game and from outside it can be impossible to deduce a problem. The police were poorly instructed though and more worried about Liverpool fans attacking Forest fans by most accounts so focused more on making a barrier between the two than actually "policing". It's a tragedy all right but it's gone and to be honest it's almost a "good" thing it happened if that makes sense? it brought the crowds back to Earth a bit... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab B Nesbit Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I've never really entered this debate because most folk seem to be extremely defensive of one side of the argument, and everyone else is defensive of the other side of the argument To be honest I find it hard to defend the authorities. Hillsborough was a horrible choice of stadium by most accounts, and can you really blame the fans? I know if I travelled miles for a Semi Final I wouldn't not enter the stadium, especially since nobody knew what was actually happening until you were in. Think we all know the noise that gets generated before a game and from outside it can be impossible to deduce a problem. The police were poorly instructed though and more worried about Liverpool fans attacking Forest fans by most accounts so focused more on making a barrier between the two than actually "policing". It's a tragedy all right but it's gone and to be honest it's almost a "good" thing it happened if that makes sense? it brought the crowds back to Earth a bit... You were safer out of it mate. Perhaps not the phrase 'good thing' but get what your trying to say - it has led to a lot of changes for the better the results of which we all see when we go to football these days. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Anyone else get the impression that Ayrforce1 and Itwiznaeme are one and the same? If so, that would epically tragic. Maybe they're both just morons. http://www.itv.com/n...ice-federation/ He seems such a nice chap as well. The media are going to dig up more and more instances of police/political failure now. It does beg the question though, why wasn't it done before now? This is the most surprising aspect for me. Surely of all the cops on duty that day, there must be some there who'd speak out about what happened. I can understand any that have made a decent career out of it not wanting to shit in their own nests, but there must be a good few ex-coppers with a story to tell. Perhaps the release of the these papers will see a few come forward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Dogma Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 If so, that would epically tragic. Maybe they're both just morons. This is the most surprising aspect for me. Surely of all the cops on duty that day, there must be some there who'd speak out about what happened. I can understand any that have made a decent career out of it not wanting to shit in their own nests, but there must be a good few ex-coppers with a story to tell. Perhaps the release of the these papers will see a few come forward. Heard one last year talking anonymously and from the emotion in his voice he seemed kosher..was on talksport I think. He essentially said the police officers were only trained to deal with disorder and violence ...preparation for something like a crush didn't happen and when it started going wrong at hillsborough large numbers of police at all ranks just froze. He sounded truly haunted by it....the problem is assume most of us have with the police was that once it had gone wrong the reaction was to instigate arse covering rather than allowing ambulances in and taking the necessary steps to provide treatment. The subsequent behavior re taking blood alcohol readings looking on criminal databases leaking false stories in press and altering statements is sort of stuff you would expecting in a Stalinist state not a democracy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Heard one last year talking anonymously and from the emotion in his voice he seemed kosher..was on talksport I think. He essentially said the police officers were only trained to deal with disorder and violence ...preparation for something like a crush didn't happen and when it started going wrong at hillsborough large numbers of police at all ranks just froze. He sounded truly haunted by it....the problem is assume most of us have with the police was that once it had gone wrong the reaction was to instigate arse covering rather than allowing ambulances in and taking the necessary steps to provide treatment. The subsequent behavior re taking blood alcohol readings looking on criminal databases leaking false stories in press and altering statements is sort of stuff you would expecting in a Stalinist state not a democracy There was a documentary on BBC last Sunday with a guy who was a PC that day. I genuinely felt for the guy as he explained how he tried to revive a young kid and struggled to complete sentences without breaking down. I think the 'on the ground' cops that day were hung out to dry, they were only following orders, incompetent orders and were woefully under manned and under trained. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realsemps Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Heard one last year talking anonymously and from the emotion in his voice he seemed kosher..was on talksport I think. He essentially said the police officers were only trained to deal with disorder and violence ...preparation for something like a crush didn't happen and when it started going wrong at hillsborough large numbers of police at all ranks just froze. He sounded truly haunted by it....the problem is assume most of us have with the police was that once it had gone wrong the reaction was to instigate arse covering rather than allowing ambulances in and taking the necessary steps to provide treatment. The subsequent behavior re taking blood alcohol readings looking on criminal databases leaking false stories in press and altering statements is sort of stuff you would expecting in a Stalinist state not a democracy A lot of cops weren't aware their statements had been "redacted " . Major political pressure was brought to bear on this to conceal the truth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrforce1 Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 If so, that would epically tragic. Maybe they're both just morons. ^^^ Chief dummy spitterooterer... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrforce1 Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Anyone else get the impression that Ayrforce1 and Itwiznaeme are one and the same? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariusZaliukas Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I'm not reading all this thread so don't know if any of this has been said. Why would you turn up to a game with no ticket? Why would you turn up 5/10 minutes before the game started? Why would you keep pushing people in front when they have stopped? Obviously the police were in the wrong the whole time. Before, during and especially after Hillsborough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydney Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I'm sure the situation is very complex and a variety of factors contributed to the tragedy. The common denominator in the likes of Hillsborough, Bradford and Ibrox were the condition of the stadia. Modern stadia design models the flow of the crowd into and out of the stadium and the design considers evacuation in emergency situations. Older grounds such as Hillsbourough "evolved" over time and had to adapt to changing situations such as the requirement for perimeter fencing in response to crowd trouble in the 1980s. It is clear that adequate consideration was not given to emergency situations when these changes were made. The risk therefore was there before the catalogue of errors made by the authorities on the day of the game. Im old enough to remember watching Hillsborough and indeed Bradford. Football grounds are much safer places today, largely as a result of the inquiries of such disasters. Hopefully, we will never see anything like these events again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realsemps Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I'm sure the situation is very complex and a variety of factors contributed to the tragedy. The common denominator in the likes of Hillsborough, Bradford and Ibrox were the condition of the stadia. Modern stadia design models the flow of the crowd into and out of the stadium and the design considers evacuation in emergency situations. Older grounds such as Hillsbourough "evolved" over time and had to adapt to changing situations such as the requirement for perimeter fencing in response to crowd trouble in the 1980s. It is clear that adequate consideration was not given to emergency situations when these changes were made. The risk therefore was there before the catalogue of errors made by the authorities on the day of the game. Im old enough to remember watching Hillsborough and indeed Bradford. Football grounds are much safer places today, largely as a result of the inquiries of such disasters. Hopefully, we will never see anything like these events again. http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1152-september-2012/8991-post-hillsborough-disaster-editorial 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 You haven't listened to Kenny enough. Liverpool told UEFA that there might be problems, so that automatically means their fans can't shoulder the blame. It's really UEFAs fault. And the Belgian police. And Juventus. And the Italians from the season before. And Margaret Thatcher. And I think Silvio Berlusconi. Possibly. Just think, had Roma not have bribed the referee in the semi-final against United, Heysel wouldn`t have happened 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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