thisGRAEME Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Your fundamental mistake. Person/Entity A cannot be held "solely" responsible, then apportioned "majority" blame thereafter. Either they are solely responsbile, to the exclusion of all other actors, or they are not. My apologies for the poor word choice, but I maintain the point that design/selection and organisational failures held far greater responsibility than any fan behaviour, on any day of the four aforementioned disasters. I ended up writing that post between doing about 4 different things, but more than anything I find the perception of each of the disasters and the way in which they are remembered interesting. For example, you rarely, if at all, find someone Rangers fans being blamed for the Ibrox disaster, which is entirely correct in my view. Yet in a broadly similar situation at Hillsborough, many find the Liverpool fans guilty of blame. As I said, for my money, they were not. Detailing 'a minority' within the crowd, my interpretation of it was that they were a factor in a day of bad decisions, within a much wider attitude of contempt towards football fans and as such, a negligible factor in the whole disaster. The videos posted in earlier parts of the thread show the potential dangers of the Leppings Lane end and a catalogue of near misses at other grounds around the UK outline the poor standard and attitude towards fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) My apologies for the poor word choice, but I maintain the point that design/selection and organisational failures held far greater responsibility than any fan behaviour, on any day of the four aforementioned disasters. I agree completely on the first three. I think you are way off the mark with Heysel though. If I break into a house and steal their TV, is the fact thy left the front door unlocked the primary problem? There comes a point where you have to stop excusing scumbaggery, as the Liverpool fans engaged in in Belgium, because of preventative measures that weren't taken to curtail this. Edited September 14, 2012 by H_B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisGRAEME Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 lolwut Heysel is different, granted, I don't intend to question that, but it was not fit for the purpose of hosting a European cup final. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I missed that on my first reading It's Kenny Dalglish isn't it!! Hi Kenny - how's the golf handicap doing? Nah, it's readable. Imagine it with no punctation, or spaces and it'd be KKKenny. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Heysel is different, granted, I don't intend to question that, but it was not fit for the purpose of hosting a European cup final. Probably not. I thought you were seriously suggesting that Liverpool fans' disgraceful behaviour didn't play a massive part in that disaster, which would have been laughable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I thought you were seriously suggesting that Liverpool fans' disgraceful behaviour didn't play a massive part in that disaster, which would have been laughable. You haven't listened to Kenny enough. Liverpool told UEFA that there might be problems, so that automatically means their fans can't shoulder the blame. It's really UEFAs fault. And the Belgian police. And Juventus. And the Italians from the season before. And Margaret Thatcher. And I think Silvio Berlusconi. Possibly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 You haven't listened to Kenny enough. Liverpool told UEFA that there might be problems, so that automatically means their fans can't shoulder the blame. It's really UEFAs fault. And the Belgian police. And Juventus. And the Italians from the season before. And Margaret Thatcher. And I think Silvio Berlusconi. Possibly. Aye i had a read of that. Ridiculous. You couldn't mark KKKenny's neck with a blowtorch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Still, perhaps I am being unfair. Maybe it's only Dalglish that has such a warped view about Heysel, and the rest of the Liverpool fans don't engage in the "spread the blame far and wide and avoid personal responsibility" game... Mmmmm.. or maybe not :- RAWK - The Horror of Heysel Fan account 1 (exerpts) :- "The fans got restless, partly through the heat, partly through boredom and partly because they were fed up of being sitting ducks for the fireworks raining down on them. Then the abuse started. The Juventus fans behind the chicken wire chanting, the Liverpool fans responding. And all would have been fine had it not been for the police. The rubbish Belgian police who were armed to the teeth but had no bottle." "Instead the Belgian police with riot gear and clubs ran away from the fans. Yes they actually ran away from the Liverpool fans! What sort of policing is that? You charge the fans with your riot shields, helmets, visors and clubs and then you leg it when the fans turn on you?" "And what happens when thousands of fans push forward and the only thing separating them from the Juventus fans is chicken wire? Well obviously the chicken wire falls down. And what happens then is that the Juve fans run, the wall falls, people die and the authorities wade in and start to blame." "Nobody wanted death. Nobody wanted to see an Italian hurt. Why oh why did it have to happen?" Fan Account 2 (excerpts):- "The months that followed were weird, with the British media on a witch-hunt for specific Liverpudlians that the police had identified. It was disgraceful exercise that never attempted to actually examine the problems that had led to the disaster. The twenty six Liverpool fans charged over Heysel were scapegoats, pawns in a game of political chess. The faults of Heysel run deep, with a corrupt UEFA choosing a stadium based on political expediency and backhanders, a stadium that was so dilapidated it was not fit to host a game of schoolgirl netball never mind a European Cup Final. They lie with the Belgian authorities whose corruption allowed a national stadium to deteriorate into such a state of disrepair yet never did anything to discourage such major events. They more than anyone knew that Heysel was a time-bomb waiting to explode, yet continued to exploit the situation for personal and national financial gain. It lies with the Belgian police whose professional ineptitude meant that there were little if any proper security measures in place at the stadium, who panicked faced with a manageable crowd control problem. It also lies, to a degree, with football fans and a tribal rivalry which meant that some Liverpool fans blamed their Italian counterparts for the events of twelve months earlier at an Italian stadium. They were not going to let that happen again. The Italian fans were not blameless in their role either, and had the events which took place inside the ground never happened, there would still have been trouble between English and Italian fans that night. Some blame for this has to fall on a society that did little to discourage the culture of football hooliganism amongst youngsters, and helped create an atmosphere in which nationalistic fervour could thrive. Like Hillsborough, it is unlikely that Heysel would ever occurred in a safe stadium, properly " And so on... and so on... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisGRAEME Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Probably not. I thought you were seriously suggesting that Liverpool fans' disgraceful behaviour didn't play a massive part in that disaster, which would have been laughable. Not at all, not how I intended it to come across, however if it hadn't been in a stadium which was in such a poor state of repair, again, with poor organisation, would the wall have collapsed? The element of trouble would almost certainly have been there, but the outcome would not have been as catastrophic as it was. Dalglish is a lunatic, all of his comments about Heysel are desperate attempts to excuse the inexcusable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Dalglish is a lunatic, all of his comments about Heysel are desperate attempts to excuse the inexcusable. But they aren't out of step with the Liverpool fans' comments since Heysel. That's what pisses people off so much. An array of excuses have been trotted out like confetti by Liverpool fans as to why Italians were killed at Heysel, most of which aren't "Because our fans behaved like animals". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooper Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) you cannot have a crush without pushing. that is a simple fact. the people who pushed those in front of them to gain entry caused the disaster. If no one had pushed then what the police chose to do would be completely irrelevant. Drivel. Have you ever been at a gig (festival maybe) when people have surged forward as the band comes on? Were there fatalities as a result? Pushing people does not cause a disaster. It creates a situation that has to be managed appropriately by those charged with doing this. Your analysis is so simplistic as to suggest you either don't have the first clue, or you don't want to accept any alternative version of events. If the pushing had been enough in itself to account for what happened on the day, why were the dead tested for alcohol levels? And why were their criminal records checked? It would surely have been enough to simply claim that too many people had surged forward. Jostling and pushing can be a feature of crowd environments. Of course it can. And people must assume a level of responsiblity for how they conduct themselves, but to suggest that this is what caused the events of that day is nonsense. The people of Liverpool who have remained aggrieved about how this incident was reported - both officially and in the press - are primarily aggrieved, it appears to me, that the supporters (including the dead) have been blamed for what happened. There is now evidence that, not only were they blamed, but corrupt and illegal means were employed to this end. I'm confident that most of those who have campaigned for the truth to come out would have preferred if no-one had pushed or jostled that afternoon, that things could have been different. I think they are entirely justified, though, in pursuing justice for those who were held up as responsible for the incident - clearing their names to some degree. In some respects. it is similiar to the families of the helicopter pilots who campaigned to have their loved ones absolved of responsibility for the crash in Kintyre in 1994. Edited September 14, 2012 by Drooper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwiznaeme Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Some of the views in this thread have been bizarre, they sound like they come from folk who haven't been to a game of football. The biggest problem on this thread is that too many silly wee boys, immature adults who will never develop into respectable mature adults, and idiotic (mentally sick) trolls have posted comments throughout the thread from the first day the thread was created. The second biggest problem is that the prejudiced (bitter twisted) minds of too many idiots both online and offline are very easily manipulated by shyster-controlled corporate media and shyster-controlled politicians all of whom have their own personal agenda's. The fact that so many downright liars in the media, politics, etc climb the career ladder after lying publicly throughout their entire careers is all the proof i require to back up my comments in this post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Dogma Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I think the fact it's Liverpool fans will make it more difficult. Partly because of Heysel and some people's distasbte with how the fans handled that and still handle it (I think Dalglish's comments are not at all out of step with other Liverpool fans I have heard speak about the tragedy) and partly because of the perceived "whinging Scousers/ grief monkeys" association. The behavior of Liverpool fans in Athens also colours opinions! If ever a group of fans should be aware of how easily things can go wrong it should have been Liverpools. It isn't fair to demonise fans at hillsborough on basis of Athens but opinions aren't always formed on a purely rational and fair basis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 The behavior of Liverpool fans in Athens also colours opinions! If ever a group of fans should be aware of how easily things can go wrong it should have been Liverpools. Yes. I thought that was astonishing as well listening to some of the interviews. Frightening stupidity and recklessness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwiznaeme Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Liverpool told UEFA that there might be problems, so that automatically means their fans can't shoulder the blame. It's really UEFAs fault. And the Belgian police. And Juventus. And the Italians from the season before. And Margaret Thatcher. And I think Silvio Berlusconi. Possibly. Yes, all of them were/are as clean as a whistle in their careers before and after that event...weren't/aren't they?...no corruption 'among' any of them. You appear to be a typical toffee-nosed fcukwitted troll...not very good at what you do but you sound like the type who will toe the party line and follow follow orders, for that reason you may go places. From my perspective, i have the life experience to know that your final destination will be hell and damnation along with your fellow Sevco fans. Edited September 14, 2012 by Itwiznaeme -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 You really are a spectacularly poor poster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Mmm, perhaps I will stay and watch the imminent car crash. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Dogma Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Yes. I thought that was astonishing as well listening to some of the interviews. Frightening stupidity and recklessness. One that stuck in my mind was an idiot blaming the Greek coppers cos it was entirely reasonable to try to charge into the stadium without a ticket. He was genuinely quite proud of his behavior!! It only takes a moron or two like that to make the syp cover up seem feasible to the masses.imo scumbags like that have helped besmirch the hillsborough victims and yet will happily join in the vigils with no sense of irony or shame 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisGRAEME Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Yes, all of them were/are as clean as a whistle in their careers before and after that event...weren't/aren't they?...no corruption 'among' any of them. You appear to be a typical toffee-nosed fcukwitted troll...not very good at what you do but you sound like the type who will toe the party line and follow follow orders, for that reason you may go places. From my perspective, i have the life experience to know that your final destination will be hell and damnation along with your fellow Sevco fans. Keep fighting the class war bro. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 You really are a spectacularly poor poster. Oh the irony Three days you have trolled this thread, trying to say your opinion on hillsborough is that the fans are to blame or partly to blame based on ONE SENTENCE of the Taylor Report, despite the fact that further down the page the were completely cleared of any blame. So now two reports absolving the supporters yet still you think you know better and continue to peddle your utter shite here. You are a catering sized idiot son and would be better switching you computer off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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