Lambie's Pigeon Feed Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 What is the significance of the 1 in 6 gradient? It is specified so often it must have some importance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owsley Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) This guy's blog of the events of that day is worth reading. http://hillsborough1...blogspot.co.uk/ A few very insightful passages. An "obscure" entrance to a fairly empty pen at the side. He got to the ground relatively early and found only two police officers and very few fans milling around. He also mentions the traffic delays that held up many. Re ticketless fans turning up. While this happened at all big games, if Liverpool had received a fairer allocation and had thousands more than Forest rather than the other way round, and were given the larger end, clearly the tragedy would have been avoided. The FA are at the top of the blame tree for me. Edited September 13, 2012 by Owsley 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasy23 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 What is the significance of the 1 in 6 gradient? It is specified so often it must have some importance. It would be very hard to stop yourself once you were being propelled down it towards the terracing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwiznaeme Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) utter crap and drivel posted on here, read the taylor report, if just 1 copper had shut the gates at the tunnell leading into pens 3&4 and thus fans had gone into the side pens it would not have happened. Doesnt matter how pissed the LFC fans were the police failed to manage the safety of the fans in the ground that day as the central pens were full at 2.10pm and the crush didnt happen until 2.55. South Yorkshire police not the fans are the murderers and yet David Duckenfield the match commander walks free JTF96 YNWA One of the very few intelligent posts on this thread before today, though i wouldn't be so harsh as to use the term "murderers" to describe those most at fault on the day of the tragedy. I see some fools are continuing to post drivel today/tonight in light of the news today. There is an old wise saying that many of you should take heed of - "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." The saying today should be changed for internet forums to... Better to not post a foolish comment on an internet message/discussion board and not be thought of at all, than to post a foolish comment and expose yourself as the fool that you so obviously are. Those of you that i am referring to know precisely who you are as does everyone else who reads this thread from start to finish. Edited September 13, 2012 by Itwiznaeme -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Maybe so, but.. 'Adequate' standards 23 years ago in my reckoning wouldn't have been deemed 'safe' today. It's a tricky thing to figure out, the state of the stadium, the standard of policing and stewarding. I'd hesitate to say crowd control, the dynamic or psychology of the crowd. So much of all that has changed. They had safety standards even way back then. Hillsborough hadn't had a valid safety certificate for 10 years. It had been taken off the list for semi finals a few years previously because of problems there. What were the improvements made- to create the pens so that the crowd pressure couldnt be relieved in any direction, and yet refused to amend the turnstiles accordingly. It wasn't adequate, by the standards of the time. Not for the other cup semi finals held there, not for league games. Thankfully you're right and much has changed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Re ticketless fans turning up. While this happened at all big games, if Liverpool had received a fairer allocation and had thousands more than Forest rather than the other way round, and were given the larger end, clearly the tragedy would have been avoided. The FA are at the top of the blame tree for me. I thought it had been established that ticketless fans were not a fundemental factor in the disaster, and that the capacity of the terrace wasn't exceeded (estimates vary by about 1,000 but the highest is about the same as the capacity, IIRC - EDIT: Infact Wikipedia's article says "far below")? If so - can we necessarily say that if Forest fans had arrived in a glut, a crush developed, a gate opened and fans not directed away from the middle pen, Forest fans wouldn't have died? Edited September 13, 2012 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe pineapples Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 They had safety standards even way back then. Hillsborough hadn't had a valid safety certificate for 10 years. It had been taken off the list for semi finals a few years previously because of problems there. What were the improvements made- to create the pens so that the crowd pressure couldnt be relieved in any direction, and yet refused to amend the turnstiles accordingly. It wasn't adequate, by the standards of the time. Not for the other cup semi finals held there, not for league games. Thankfully you're right and much has changed. You also have to frame it in the culture at that time. Word association with 'football' would have been 'hooligan' and if not that word then 'lout' or 'yob' Supporters were vilified by the press and the authorities leading to fences around the pitch, fences between home and away ends and even fences between sections of your home support The pens at hillsborough were built to treat football fans as animals. There weren't meant to be means of escape as the police wanted you ideally not to get out of there. It was a bleak way of watching a game trying to see over or through fences. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 A well deserved greenie for that one. To any Liverpool fans reading or people with friends or relatives who died in the tragedy... To be honest, Celtic helped only because of the game that was played after Hillsborough. For that, I am grateful. For your huge banner, well Rangers have one as well. I wish both of your clubs would f**k off and stop trying to gain exposure and money through the pain felt from Liverpool fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fueradejuego Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Fair enough, keep quoting the Taylor Repor, if you want to, but bear in mind, he was listening to the evidence of a corrupt police force. Quite, that's an important point. (And yet even operating mostly with all that evidence which we now know to have been systematically doctored, he still largely exonerated the fans, and that quote that HB keeps using was a preamble to him dismissing it as a significant factor.) "There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush....But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry" It's the same paragraph. My earlier post looked into this in more detail. How many is a minority and at what point does a minority start to have an effect upon a crowd of thousands? That will never be know but is the key issue. 10 bams causing a problem. No issue. 1,000 bams causing a problem then there is an issue. Based upon Taylor's findings, I would suggest if the number of people causing problems etc was even in the hundreds, it would have been a significant contributory factor and would have been recorded more strongly within the report with perhaps even an indicative guess at the number. That it was not, suggests to me, the number was insignificant and unlikely to be a cause. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwiznaeme Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 the findings of this report reminds me of the Bloody Sunday enquiry a couple of years ago, they have basically given the public what they wanted to hear but the chances of anyone actually getting done for it are slight, maybe they'll throw up a lamb to be slaughtered but doubt it, can you imagine the uproar if they had portioned some of the blame onto the Liverpool fans. What a fool you are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owsley Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I thought it had been established that ticketless fans were not a fundemental factor in the disaster, and that the capacity of the terrace wasn't exceeded (estimates vary by about 1,000 but the highest is about the same as the capacity, IIRC - EDIT: Infact Wikipedia's article says "far below")? If so - can we necessarily say that if Forest fans had arrived in a glut, a crush developed, a gate opened and fans not directed away from the middle pen, Forest fans wouldn't have died? We'll never know how many fans were ticketless. They clearly existed, whether it was a couple of dozen or a few hundred. Forest's average, according to that blog, was around 24,000; Liverpool's around 40,000. Forest's fan base would surely have been adequately catered for with that end of the ground. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightswoodBear Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 To be honest, Celtic helped only because of the game that was played after Hillsborough. For that, I am grateful. For your huge banner, well Rangers have one as well. I wish both of your clubs would f**k off and stop trying to gain exposure and money through the pain felt from Liverpool fans. If it's that one you mean, then it was Liverpool fans who made that one up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasy23 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Here's the When Saturday Comes fanzine front cover immediately after Hillsborough. http://tinyurl.com/8rbxua3 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Funnily enough I have. I haven't disputed mishandling, cover ups or anything else on the official side but there was still behaviour by a minority that could have contributed to the disaster. It's my opinion, not an agenda against Liverpool. However I do tend to find a lot of it's inhabitants very irritating. That doesn't mean I wish death on them......except John Bishop........and Paul McCartney obviously. We will never know if at all how much any 'drunken ticketless' etc contributed to the deaths. I personally have been at many big matches with crowds such as that, back in the terracing days of CP, Hampden and others, i have also been at the football with a fair bevvy in me at times but never have i seen or thought that any of these factors would lead to deaths at games ive been at. The factors at Sheffield that day all combined and led to this tragedy. Regarding your last point, as you may know i have a soft spot for Liverpool as well as friends and family in the city, but i could happily punch Cilla Black and Paul McCartney repeatedly in the puss all day long 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy85 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 It's strange that Celtic fans fly banners demanding justice for the Hillsborough disaster but also mock the victims of the 9/11 terrorist atrocities. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 It's strange that Celtic fans fly banners demanding justice for the Hillsborough disaster but also mock the victims of the 9/11 terrorist atrocities. Do we ? If your going to troll at least have some substance to it james... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 You are no Liverpool fan, of that i am 100% sure. I suggest that you f**k off lad and troll somewhere else. Superb. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe pineapples Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 It's the same paragraph. My earlier post looked into this in more detail. How many is a minority and at what point does a minority start to have an effect upon a crowd of thousands? That will never be know but is the key issue. 10 bams causing a problem. No issue. 1,000 bams causing a problem then there is an issue. Based upon Taylor's findings, I would suggest if the number of people causing problems etc was even in the hundreds, it would have been a significant contributory factor and would have been recorded more strongly within the report with perhaps even an indicative guess at the number. That it was not, suggests to me, the number was insignificant and unlikely to be a cause. my guess is that it's exponential If say 10 or 15 guys push at the tunnel exit into the pen, their force or motion just transmits through the crowd. I don't know the science behind it but at a guess. Could An 8 stone wee man pushing at the top of the slope downward snowball to crush someone bigger at the bottom despite the bodies of people in between dampening the full effect to some extent? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy85 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Do we ? If your going to troll at least have some substance to it james... So what was the Celtic fan imitating when he was mocking Claudio Reyna? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 So what was the Celtic fan imitating when he was mocking Claudio Reyna? Being a scumbag. That does not make the entire Celtic support 9/11 taunters though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.