Swampy Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I wonder what this imaginary grandad would say if he saw the absolute drivel his grandson has attached to his name. If someone cared enough they could look up any obituaries for people named 'Magee' in 2012 in Scotland. I'm happy not to do this and just assume that 'magee84' is lying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Police forces should never be assumed to automatically work in the best interests of the public, nor justice. That's a cracking statement. Kudos. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lau03143 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The evasive action available that day was to stop, as it is in driving. Some people decided it was better to plough on despite the obvious resistance they must have felt. "That looks like a hell of a crush up there, maybe if a crowd of us push from the back we could help clear it." or "The traffic has stopped, I wonder what's happening? Oh fuck it, carry on. I want to see what's happening." Same thing really. Have you ever been at a football game in terracing when it's totally packed? When your funneled through a gate or whatever, it's very hard to avoid a crush, you basically get carried with the crowd and the folk at the front would have had no chance. Especially if the police kept on directing people forward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboMikey Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) People have to take responsibility for their actions though. Even if it was the norm for it to be packed, does that excuse going in without a ticket.? And even if it was normal at football, it still doesn't make it right to keep shoving people forward. Terrible tragedy and the authorities were definitely to blame to a certain extent, but nobody will take Liverpool fans seriously until they own up to some of their fans being partly responsible. Edited September 13, 2012 by JamboMikey 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) People have to take responsibility for their actions though. Even if it was the norm for it to be packed, does that excuse going in without a ticket.? And even if it was normal at football, it still doesn't make it right to keep shoving people forward. Terrible tragedy and the authorities were definitely to blame to a certain extent, but nobody will take Liverpool fans seriously until they own up to some of their fans being partly responsible. Ticketless fans was not a contributory factor. There is no suggestion that there were too many fans gaining access to the ground, only that there were too many in the central pen, because there was no one directing them into the other two pens which had loads of room. It's hard to believe that more than twenty years after Taylor scotched most of this shit, and now that a new report has done so even more emphatically, people are apparently still having to be told this sort of stuff. (Edit: apologies for the tone of this post, wasn't meaning to be getting at you, particularly. Just been getting a bit frustrated with some of it, generally.) Edited September 13, 2012 by Yoss 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe pineapples Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Perhaps you're reading something more unusual and violent into the word "pushing" than I am, but of course that's normal behaviour. People who have got into a football match and are not yet onto the terracing where they can see it are going to be trying to get to the terraces. Sure, if it's already obvious that there's insufficient room, that there's a serious crush, it'd be another thing, but that's not how crowd dynamics work - the ones at the back who are simply trying to get to where they want to be don't and can't have any idea that there's anything serious or unusual happening further forward. There's nothing "disgraceful" going on there (and nor did Taylor suggest so, that's only your riff on it). Good point. I'm guessing there's a number of reconstructions and analysis of what happened over the years and advances in science and technology will have figured the chain of events But somebody pushed at some point. But is it a wave effect or multiple points of pressure or a general surge? Inadequate policing, stewarding and a one in six slope into the pens amplified things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Inadequate policing, stewarding and a one in six slope into the pens amplified things. "Inadequate" is a hell of a restrained word there, Joe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Have you ever been at a football game in terracing when it's totally packed? When your funneled through a gate or whatever, it's very hard to avoid a crush, you basically get carried with the crowd and the folk at the front would have had no chance. Especially if the police kept on directing people forward. Funnily enough I have. I haven't disputed mishandling, cover ups or anything else on the official side but there was still behaviour by a minority that could have contributed to the disaster. It's my opinion, not an agenda against Liverpool. However I do tend to find a lot of it's inhabitants very irritating. That doesn't mean I wish death on them......except John Bishop........and Paul McCartney obviously. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taurus Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Not read the whole thread and if it's been asked I apologise . Why did the Coroner make a deadline of 3-15 for the victims ( he said none were alive after this ) Was he ordered frrom higher up (government ) to make these findings . ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe pineapples Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 "Inadequate" is a hell of a restrained word there, Joe. Maybe so, but.. 'Adequate' standards 23 years ago in my reckoning wouldn't have been deemed 'safe' today. It's a tricky thing to figure out, the state of the stadium, the standard of policing and stewarding. I'd hesitate to say crowd control, the dynamic or psychology of the crowd. So much of all that has changed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Not read the whole thread and if it's been asked I apologise . Why did the Coroner make a deadline of 3-15 for the victims ( he said none were alive after this ) Was he ordered frrom higher up (government ) to make these findings . ? The coroner at the time in his wisdom said that all the deaths were inevitable before 3.15pm due to the nature of their injuries. Any help available after that time would have been of no use he decided. 41 ambulances were outside the ground, but were not permitted to enter the ground by the police. One ambulance attended the victims on the pitch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Maybe so, but.. 'Adequate' standards 23 years ago in my reckoning wouldn't have been deemed 'safe' today. It's a tricky thing to figure out, the state of the stadium, the standard of policing and stewarding. I'd hesitate to say crowd control, the dynamic or psychology of the crowd. So much of all that has changed. Indeed, and they've changed in large part as a response to Hillsborough. It's partly why I'm wary of singling out individuals for blame, there was a whole culture at fault, not limited to that ground or that police force. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taurus Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The coroner at the time in his wisdom said that all the deaths were inevitable before 3.15pm due to the nature of their injuries. Any help available after that time would have been of no use he decided. 41 ambulances were outside the ground, but were not permitted to enter the ground by the police. One ambulance attended the victims on the pitch. Right I get that , But why did he do that ? A coroner is meant to be impartial and get to the truth , everything he did looked as if there was only going to be one outcome and wasn't he knighted after it ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Right I get that , But why did he do that ? A coroner is meant to be impartial and get to the truth , everything he did looked as if there was only going to be one outcome and wasn't he knighted after it ? He had to lie to continue the lie started by Duckenfield. Just like Graham Kelly of the FA had to, Sir Bernard Ingham had to and 3 police chief constables had to. Amongst many many others. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taurus Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 He had to lie to continue the lie started by Duckenfield. Just like Graham Kelly of the FA had to, Sir Bernard Ingham had to and 3 police chief constables had to. Amongst many many others. That's what I'm getting at , I feel this goes higher than the people mentioned . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itwiznaeme Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Liverpool and Celtic fans must take notes from each other, they're both "oppressed" and everything is a "conspiracy" against them, and they're both extremely scummy people. This 'Courier 6' post is a prime example of the majority of posts on this thread up until this morning. In light of today's news what do all you silly wee boys who posted similar comments showing no respect for the dead (or their loved ones left behind) have to say for yourselves? Edited September 13, 2012 by Itwiznaeme 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The disgraceful behaviour of some Liverpool fans on the day shouldn't take away from that. ‘It is evident from the documents disclosed to the Panel that the safety of the crowd admitted to the terrace was compromised at every level: access to the turnstiles from the public highway; the condition and adequacy of the turnstiles; the management of the crowd by the SYP and the SWFC stewards; alterations to the terrace, particularly the construction of pens; the condition and placement of crush barriers; access to the central pens via a tunnel descending at a 1 in 6 gradient; emergency egress from the pens via small gates in the perimeter fence; lack of precise monitoring of crowd capacity within the pens. These deficiencies were well-known and further overcrowding problems at the turnstiles in 1987 and on the terrace in 1988 were additional indications of the inherent dangers to crowd safety. The risks were known and the crush in 1989 was foreseeable.’ ‘The Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.’ Fair enough, keep quoting the Taylor Repor, if you want to, but bear in mind, he was listening to the evidence of a corrupt police force. I'm not asking you, or anyone else to change their mind about your beliefs about what happened that day. Just as long as you, and others on here, will now respect the other side of the story as being the truth, whether you accept it or not. It would be great it everyone could just draw a line under this now. But I know it isn't going to happen and the story will drag on and on while criminal proceedings are likely. Personally, I don't see the benefit of going after policemen who have long since retired. Maggie though.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Right I get that , But why did he do that ? A coroner is meant to be impartial and get to the truth , everything he did looked as if there was only going to be one outcome and wasn't he knighted after it ? Just working my way through the report now, the opening of chapter 5 just says The medical evidence from pathologists who had conducted post mortem examinations on the deceased was central in establishing the picture of an unvarying pattern of death within a few minutes of crushing. This evidence was the basis for the assertion by the Coroner and others that the outcome was predetermined from an early stage for all who died. This underpinned the imposition of the 3.15pm cut-off on the generic inquest and the repeated assumption that the emergency services’ response could not have helped. (It then goes on to say that, having now seen "all of the relevant records" - the implication, I think, being that the coroner didn't - this cut-off is unsustainable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Fair enough, keep quoting the Taylor Repor, if you want to, but bear in mind, he was listening to the evidence of a corrupt police force. Quite, that's an important point. (And yet even operating mostly with all that evidence which we now know to have been systematically doctored, he still largely exonerated the fans, and that quote that HB keeps using was a preamble to him dismissing it as a significant factor.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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