roverthemoon Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 A lot of pissed off people around the now who for years enjoyed telling anyone who would listen that Liverpool fans were solely to blame for the tragedy. After 23 years we finally know that this is not the case. I doubt even the overwhelming evidence will change the opinion of these people. You just need to look at this thread to see that. Some people just like being dicks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What a laughable claim, no one, absolutely no one, said it was solely down to the Liverpool fans. Hi, Kelvin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 In that Friday night football was a resource issue I guess that might be construed as the case: but I find it a pretty tenuous and/or childish approach to compare that to having a view on police mistakes at, and cover-ups following, the Hillsborough Disaster. Grow-up, essentially. Well I don't find the link tenuous atall, but carry on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) In that Friday night football was a resource issue I guess that might be construed as the case: but I find it a pretty tenuous and/or childish approach to compare that to having a view on police mistakes at, and cover-ups following, the Hillsborough Disaster. Grow-up, essentially. And yet clearly important enough for you to find it necessary to post about. *sweep sweep sweep* The point of course is that you're a classic enabler for authoritarian police forces to do their worst, and are now claiming outrage when the same organisations proceed to do whatever the f**k they want in order to suit their selfish needs. Edited September 12, 2012 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz FFC Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What a laughable claim, no one, absolutely no one, said it was solely down to the Liverpool fans. I was not talking about here. I have had countless Hillsborough chats over the years, and have lost count of the number of times someone has blamed Liverpool fans 100%. Most people blamed police and Scousers 50/50 to be fair 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I was not talking about here. I have had countless Hillsborough chats over the years, and have lost count of the number of times someone has blamed Liverpool fans 100%. Most people blamed police and Scousers 50/50 to be fair They're clearly idiots then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) 1347480968[/url]' post='6622039']Have not read the thread, as I guess/fear how it may have gone... and it'll be interesting to see if anyone take issue with this... but for me the tragedy of Hillsborough is also the tragedy of English (even European) football in the 1980s. Though particular elements unfortunately conspired to create such tragedy that day... the ground, the stand, the nature of fans arrival, the behaviour and 'decision-making' of the police... the ingredients had quietly brewed for years beforehand. In some cases decades. They could conceivably have combined at other matches at other grounds, not just Hillsborough that particular day. Grounds were kept in poor repair, and crowd safety - entrances, exits, stewarding, access etc. - was not treated seriously. Hooliganism had led to the 'penning-in' of terracings, in order to prevent pitch invasions and fighting between rival supporters. That violence had also led to animosity between supporters and the police. All these problems were issues in themselves, but they conspired with the individual circumstances to create disaster. In that particular respect, the coverup of the bungling decision-making and poor attitude of the police is seperate. It has sadly exacerbated and delayed the final acceptance of the tragic circumstances that created "The Hillsborough Disaster". Clearly those who went about actively creating a cover-up should be brought to account. But for me, the tragedy - as opposed to the scandal - is the combination of ingredients which, in hindsight, was avoidable and yet inevitable. I'm unsure where to begin. Stunned at the extent of the cover up and delighted for the families that their fight has been worthwhile. I feel cautious about using words like 'truth' and 'justice' on the subject, A long time has passed, Can prosecutions take place? Can there be a full forensic run through of the day from all sides to unpick the events? Would a new series of enquiries do that? As a teenager I travelled on one of the saints supporters buses. I remember the state of grounds around the country in the late 80's. I'm too young to know about the days when you took your carry out in with you, but I certainly saw a few hairy situations when goals were scored or whatever and the feeling of being caught in a crowd surge is horrible, watching the game and then feeling the push, hoping you can hold your ground, knowing you're going and trying to stop yourself from losing your feet. It was the one bit about terracing I hated. I had some great times as a youngster going to those games, loved going to the games, the banter, the singing, the atmosphere. I wouldn't want to go back to it though. Heysel, Bradford and Hillsborough all led to Taylor and all seater modern stadia. All are horrible and terrible sacrifices to progress. Was it inevitable, had a few circumstances differed, could it have been another ground on another day if a few circumstances differed? I dunno. I know there's a movement to reintroduce limited amounts terracing of terracing on the safe standing 'German' type, I honestly don't see attraction, I'll take a seat if that's ok. Edited September 12, 2012 by chico 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz FFC Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I doubt even the overwhelming evidence will change the opinion of these people. You just need to look at this thread to see that. Some people just like being dicks Dicks or very thick? Must be hard after 23 years to just put up your hands and say 'i was wrong' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz FFC Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 They're clearly idiots then. We agree 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) *sweep sweep sweep* The point of course is that you're a classic enabler for authoritarian police forces to do their worst, and are now claiming outrage when the same organisations proceed to do whatever the f**k they want in order to suit their selfish needs. Which is a load of complete rubbish. As I've said before, if there isn't the resource to police Friday games then I think it's fair enough for them to not be organisable if clubs can't cover the requirements in other ways (e.g. Motherwell's experiment to use of greater number of stewards). Clubs haven't protested against that principle, either. It's a pretty chasm-like leap to then suggest this is incompatible with holding a view of the tragedy of the Hillsborough disaster, and the unacceptability of some police conduct afterwards. My appraisal of why drinking at games won't happen has never been based on police objections. They are simply one factor, and secondary, among a substantial list of reasons. Yet that's "a classic enabler for authoritarian police forces to do their worst"? Sure. Where did I "claim outrage", btw? I think my post was pretty reserved and reasonable. I really don't see what this 'issue' has to do with the topic of this thread, either, but seemingly you and BerwickMad do. Fair enough. Edited September 12, 2012 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceblink Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I went to Villa Park to see Aston Villa play Liverpool about 6 months after Hillsbourgh. Went into the Liverppol end, as that was the closest to where a bus dropped us off near the ground. There was a minor crush in the queue to the turnstiles, and I can remember a police officer directing us towards a particular gate. I can remember a Liverpool fan saying"I'm not going in there", and the police officer ordering him to get a move on without any sympathy towards the guy. The police really did treat football fans like shit in those days, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 A long time has passed, Can prosecutions take place? Can there be a full forensic run through of the day from all sides to unpick the events? Would a new series of enquiries do that? There's 2 aspects I suppose. Whether or not police decisions on the day go beyond incompetence into negligence (or beyond), and the occurrences afterward, particularly the alteration of statements. How many of the top level police at the time are still alive, and what age are they? If you were mid-50s in 1989 you're pushing 80 now. There's also the inquest aspect - not opening-up the ground to let ambulances in and resulting delays. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggy Wallace Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Just listening to guys phone up Talksport to discuss the whole thing. Arsenal, Spurs etc all phoning up with their own stories about near misses in Lepping Lane. A guy phoned up saying in 1973 he was convinced someone was going to end up dead one day in that part of the ground. The place was clearly a death trap. Shame about the ignorant fuds trying to blame guys there to watch a game of football. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz FFC Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I went to Villa Park to see Aston Villa play Liverpool about 6 months after Hillsbourgh. Went into the Liverppol end, as that was the closest to where a bus dropped us off near the ground. There was a minor crush in the queue to the turnstiles, and I can remember a police officer directing us towards a particular gate. I can remember a Liverpool fan saying"I'm not going in there", and the police officer ordering him to get a move on without any sympathy towards the guy. The police really did treat football fans like shit in those days, Go to an Old firm or Tayside ground for a modern day reminder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggy Wallace Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 This is the sort of w****r the anti Liverpool brigade are in agreement with. Laughable “A combination of economic misfortune…and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society.…Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident..." Boris Johnson The Spectator October 16th 2004 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 There's 2 aspects I suppose. Whether or not police decisions on the day go beyond incompetence into negligence (or beyond), and the occurrences afterward, particularly the alteration of statements. How many of the top level police at the time are still alive, and what age are they? If you were mid-50s in 1989 you're pushing 80 now. There's also the inquest aspect - not opening-up the ground to let ambulances in and resulting delays. I'd guess an inquest would yield a lot of:- 'that's what we did in those days' It's getting to who made the key decisions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The/Republic Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Just listening to guys phone up Talksport to discuss the whole thing. Arsenal, Spurs etc all phoning up with their own stories about near misses in Lepping Lane. A guy phoned up saying in 1973 he was convinced someone was going to end up dead one day in that part of the ground. The place was clearly a death trap. Shame about the ignorant fuds trying to blame guys there to watch a game of football. I heard a Liverpool fan on earlier today , real emotional stuff as he described the events from his perspective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I'd guess an inquest would yield a lot of:- 'that's what we did in those days' It's getting to who made the key decisions. Any new investigation would also, so would prosecutions tbh. Regarding the inquest though, I was meaning that the possibilty tha'ts now raised that some of the victims might've had a greater chance of survival, had on-the-spot decisions been taken differently, like opening the ground or ambulance delays. Whatever the legitmacy or otherwise of the decisions, it may be the 'material fact' in some of the victim's inquest findings is incorrect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magee84 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I heard a Liverpool fan on earlier today , real emotional stuff as he described the events from his perspective. The guy who phoned up telling of how he got a last minute ticket for a mates kid who then perished was in bits.... you wonder how 23 years on people can cope with the horrors of it all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggy Wallace Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 There was another boy on saying he got a last minute ticket for the seating area so sold his lepping lane ticket to a guy outside the ground I'd find it hard to live with that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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