Hillsborough debate

[GNU_Linux]

I'm not overly familiar with English law but are there any statutory limits on how long after an event a person/an entity can be charged whether legal or civil (assuming statutory length is applicable to both) in a case like this?

[Falcor Roar]

4 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Going after Duckenfield was flawed IMHO - there has always been a shared responsibility for the events that day - the problem is that has not really ever been acknowledged - with buck-passing, scapegoating and pointing the finger being the flavour of the day.

The blame I think doesn't solely lie with Duckenfield but lies with bad stadium design, bad planning, police behaviour and football authorities who were still living in the dark ages.

Getting them to recognise their collective responsibility is the real issue.

I don't think anyone was saying that Duckenfield was solely to blame. He was woefully unprepared that day and has since been arrogant and deceitful so he gets no sympathy from me. 

[throbber]

This is the best documentary I have seen that takes us nicely up to 2012:

Two few things worth noting from the first 15 that aren’t mentioned nearly enough in any Hillsborough discussion are that:

1 - David Duckenfield was given the job of match commander for the stadium with 21 days notice after the usual officer who had several years of experience at the ground got disciplined and transferred out to Barnsley because of a faked armed robbery initiation ritual on a young police officer in his unit that he had nothing to do with, and

2 - In 1981 during an FA cup match the Leppings Lane end saw awful crushing to the point numerous fans had to escape the pens and were pitch side for much of the match on the say so of the police. When the point was raised that there could have been loss off life because of this, these concerns were immediately dismissed as rubbish. These concerns weren’t even mentioned during the brief before the 89 semi final.

Basically, Duckenfield was completely out of his depth and the wrong man for the job through no fault of his own, the stadium was unfit for purpose and keeping supporters in pens was a recipe for disaster for years and it is impossible to find Duckenfield guilty of the manslaughter of 95 people despite him being a monumental c**t.

Hope anyone who hasn’t seen the video gives it a watch.

[HibeeJibee]

Only conviction has been Wednesday's secretary.... not guilty over breaching safety certificate (telling in itself), but by majority on a H&S charge relating to turnstiles/capacity proportions.

In relation to the usual venue commander moving on 3 weeks prior: it's also worth noting the only neutral venue games held in that force area in the previous 20yrs, other than FA Cup SFs at Hillsborough, were NI v Bulgaria (15yrs before)... EFL v Irish League (20yrs at Barnsley)... plus 6 x U21 ties (all bar 1 at Bramall Lane). All crowds <12k. So there was no pool of experience.


Having opened the gates to avoid a crush outside - potential danger became a crush inside by not closing the corridor into the pens.

Did the police even know to do so, or was it forgotten? 

Edited November 30, 2019 by HibeeJibee

[throbber]

I don’t think the police had a clue, there were no police at the entrance to the central pens entrance when there had been at previous years. Also for people commenting on the 2 wider pens being scarcely populated - the entrance to them was at the side of Leppings lane stand without much signage to tell fans where to go, the entrance at the river don side being particularly tight, you could only fit 3 people wide round there. If there’s no police force telling people to go to pens 1 and 4 and they can’t visibly see the entrance then they’re bound to head for the central pens.

[Diamonds are Forever]

19 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Going after Duckenfield was flawed IMHO - there has always been a shared responsibility for the events that day - the problem is that has not really ever been acknowledged - with buck-passing, scapegoating and pointing the finger being the flavour of the day.

The blame I think doesn't solely lie with Duckenfield but lies with bad stadium design, bad planning, police behaviour and football authorities who were still living in the dark ages.

Getting them to recognise their collective responsibility is the real issue.

 

I think this is it. I can absolutely understand the relatives going after him, I'm sure I'd be the same in their situation. But it seems like there were clear huge systemic flaws all the way down which led to this tragedy. That should never just excuse individuals within that system being held accountable for their part, but it does mean that effectively pinning the whole thing on one guy is going to struggle to ever get through court.

Even though they haven't got a conviction, the work of the relatives in changing the perception of this tragedy amongst the general public, fighting against the media and comments from people like Duckenfield, has been incredible. Whilst they'll struggle to ever get closure in terms of convictions, I hope that provides some solace to them.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Diamonds are Forever

[pandarilla]

You're absolutely spot on.

But the reaction to cover up and blame fans was not systematic failure. That was evil cuntishness and the natural reaction is to want people to get what they're due.

I'm not 100% on duckenfield's role in that - but I'm sure he was involved.

[Guest Moomintroll]

You're absolutely spot on.

But the reaction to cover up and blame fans was not systematic failure. That was evil cuntishness and the natural reaction is to want people to get what they're due.

I'm not 100% on duckenfield's role in that - but I'm sure he was involved.

Duckenfield was incompetent & negligent beyond belief, as were his subordinates. Yet as you say, the real scandal was the smear campaign that was waged for years deflecting any blame whatsoever off them & onto the Liverpool fans that day. Unless someone can point me in the right direction, it is not a provable criminal offence in itself, but morally those b*****ds have blood on their hands. They knew it at the time and deliberately blamed the Supporters for their errors in the hope that would stick & it would all go away.

[throbber]

You're absolutely spot on.

But the reaction to cover up and blame fans was not systematic failure. That was evil cuntishness and the natural reaction is to want people to get what they're due.

I'm not 100% on duckenfield's role in that - but I'm sure he was involved.

Duckenfield told the FA chief executive at 3:15 that the Liverpool fans had broke the gate down and were late and drunk and rampaging and that was what caused the disaster. That was then used as the line that the police went with, with the help of the mainstream media and was made easier by the thuggish reputation of football fans around that time.

When being interviewed by the police in the hours after, those who had lost loved ones were being asked how much they had to drink on the day and toxicology reports were taken on all the deceased including children to try and implement that alcohol had a massive part to play. One man who had lost his brother told the police that he didn’t drink or smoke and the officer said to him “you’ll be telling us he was a virgin next”.

[welshbairn]

19 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

Unless someone can point me in the right direction, it is not a provable criminal offence in itself

I'd have thought falsifying scores of police witness statements would be a criminal offence. Nothing seems to have been done about that.

[Guest Moomintroll]

I'd have thought falsifying scores of police witness statements would be a criminal offence. Nothing seems to have been done about that.

Good shout, that has to fall under Perverting the Course of Justice. Disgusting yet unsurprising all round sadly.

[HibeeJibee]

That is what noticeably separates Hillsborough from the Burden Park, Second Ibrox and Valley Parade disasters (its recent 'conspiracy theory' aside), IMO.

In those cases the reason for the catastrophe and who was responsible for negligence, bungling or poor design - clubs, police, local or national government, etc. - were quickly accepted.

In the case of Hillsborough there was a clear attempt - primarily by the police - to deflect blame for their failings by suppressing evidence, alleging there was fan misbehaviour, and so on.

Doing so was facilitated by fans already having a 'bad rep' in the wake of hooliganism generally and the Heysel disaster particularly.

Fatalities at Burnden Park (33), Second Ibrox (66) and Valley Parade (56) were of magnitudes not vastly below Hillsborough (96)... but that connivance has caused its drawn-out resolution.

Edited December 1, 2019 by HibeeJibee

[HibeeJibee]

3 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I'd have thought falsifying scores of police witness statements would be a criminal offence. Nothing seems to have been done about that.

 

2 hours ago, Moomintroll said:

Good shout, that has to fall under Perverting the Course of Justice. Disgusting yet unsurprising all round sadly.

Donald Denton, Alan Foster and Peter Metcalf - respectively chief superintendent, detective chief inspector and police force solicitor - have been charged with PCJ.

Trial starts in April.

[peasy23]

Only conviction has been Wednesday's secretary.... not guilty over breaching safety certificate (telling in itself), but by majority on a H&S charge relating to turnstiles/capacity proportions.

In relation to the usual venue commander moving on 3 weeks prior: it's also worth noting the only neutral venue games held in that force area in the previous 20yrs, other than FA Cup SFs at Hillsborough, were NI v Bulgaria (15yrs before)... EFL v Irish League (20yrs at Barnsley)... plus 6 x U21 ties (all bar 1 at Bramall Lane). All crowds

Having opened the gates to avoid a crush outside - potential danger became a crush inside by not closing the corridor into the pens.

Did the police even know to do so, or was it forgotten? 

Of those semi finals Liverpool and Forest played at Hillsborough in 1988. One difference as far as I am aware was that the police had a cordon in place that day to check tickets before people were allowed near the stadium, but that wasn't in place in 1989, presumably to save on costs.

[HibeeJibee]

18 minutes ago, peasy23 said:

Of those semi finals Liverpool and Forest played at Hillsborough in 1988. One difference as far as I am aware was that the police had a cordon in place that day to check tickets before people were allowed near the stadium, but that wasn't in place in 1989, presumably to save on costs.

BR also ran only 1 special train not 3... more fans travelled by road and arrived nearer KO.

H&SE demonstrated turnstile build-up couldn't have been cleared until 40mins after KO:
* among the 23 turnstiles on Leppings Lane there were 7 turnstiles for 10,100 supporters using the terracing
* that equated to 1,433 fans per turnstile if none used the seating turnstiles
* come 3pm only 7,247 had entered
* it would have taken until 3:40pm for the remaining ~2,800 to enter
* counted from CCTV about 1,800 fans entered through Gate C after it was opened at 2:52pm

[peasy23]

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

BR also ran only 1 special train not 3... more fans travelled by road and arrived nearer KO.

H&SE demonstrated turnstile build-up couldn't have been cleared until 40mins after KO:
* among the 23 turnstiles on Leppings Lane there were 7 turnstiles for 10,100 supporters using the terracing
* that equated to 1,433 fans per turnstile if none used the seating turnstiles
* come 3pm only 7,247 had entered
* it would have taken until 3:40pm for the remaining ~2,800 to enter
* counted from CCTV about 1,800 fans entered through Gate C after it was opened at 2:52pm

Yep, there was a whole collection of decisions that led to the catastrophe that followed. I read the whole report from the Hillsborough Independent Panel when it was released in 2012, it is pretty harrowing stuff but I would recommend it to anybody who wants to genuinely find out what happened on the day. The option of delaying the kick off was also not considered. As mentioned, it wasn't just decisions made on the day that caused 96 deaths, with the FA's decision to use a dilapidated ground with no adequate safety certificates being the first one. Here's the link if anybody wants to read the report.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-report-of-the-hillsborough-independent-panel

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by peasy23

[54_and_counting]

1 hour ago, peasy23 said:

Yep, there was a whole collection of decisions that led to the catastrophe that followed. I read the whole report from the Hillsborough Independent Panel when it was released in 2012, it is pretty harrowing stuff but I would recommend it to anybody who wants to genuinely find out what happened on the day. The option of delaying the kick off was also not considered. As mentioned, it wasn't just decisions made on the day that caused 96 deaths, with the FA's decision to use a dilapidated ground with no adequate safety certificates being the first one. Here's the link if anybody wants to read the report.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-report-of-the-hillsborough-independent-panel

 

Ive always wondered if the decision to use stadiums like these back then was based a lot on how contained the fans were given the rampant hooligansim back then, especially with liverpool fans being at fault for heysel

[HibeeJibee]

12 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Ive always wondered if the decision to use stadiums like these back then was based a lot on how contained the fans were given the rampant hooligansim back then, especially with liverpool fans being at fault for heysel

Tbh it looks like they just picked any 'big' ground roughly between the Semi-Finalists in question each time. There was even a policy of not playing replays at the same venue (even though all the preparations would just have been put into practice and they could usually be just 4/11 days later).

During the 1960s to 1980s the FA used The Hawthorns, City Ground, St Andrews, Filbert Street, White Hart Lane, Hillsborough, Villa Park, Burnden Park, Old Trafford, Goodison Park, Maine Road, Stamford Bridge, Highbury, Highfield Road and Elland Road.

Hillsborough got used 19 times in those 30yrs for SFs. It was the only venue outside of Wembley to host a competitive England international (there was also a friendly at Goodison); it ran a rare League Cup Final replay; and 4 games at WC '66... On paper Hillsborough and South Yorkshire Police should've been 2nd only to Wembley and the Metropolitan for experience with neutral venue games.

[HoBNob]

9 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

That is what noticeably separates Hillsborough from the Burden Park, Second Ibrox and Valley Parade disasters (its recent 'conspiracy theory' aside), IMO.

In those cases the reason for the catastrophe and who was responsible for negligence, bungling or poor design - clubs, police, local or national government, etc. - were quickly accepted.

In the case of Hillsborough there was a clear attempt - primarily by the police - to deflect blame for their failings by suppressing evidence, alleging there was fan misbehaviour, and so on.

Doing so was facilitated by fans already having a 'bad rep' in the wake of hooliganism generally and the Heysel disaster particularly.

Fatalities at Burnden Park (33), Second Ibrox (66) and Valley Parade (56) were of magnitudes not vastly below Hillsborough (96)... but that connivance has caused its drawn-out resolution.

Out of interest was anyone charged in relation to those tragedies HJ? 

[HibeeJibee]

14 hours ago, Grant228 said:

Out of interest was anyone charged in relation to those tragedies HJ? 

Only in terms of damages for negligence etc.

I can't find reference to even that for Bolton but it was just after WWII and aggravated by fans scaling walls/turnstiles plus a fan picking open a gate (to get his son out).

There was a test case for negligence brought against Rangers which found them guilty on 4 counts. They accepted the ruling and 60 other damage cases i.e. corresponding to the dead.

Bradford City and the council as fire certifier (on 2/3 v 1/3 liability) were found guilty in a test case and 154 other damages cases for the dead, injured and police.


Interestingly after the First Ibrox disaster in 1902 the timber supplier was charged with culpable homicide over 'inferior wood'. Its significance was doubtful and he was acquitted by a jury.