Hillsborough debate

[HTG]

Problem is, what kind of justice are you expecting here?

You seem to be a bit naive. There's absolutely no hope of proper justice in this case. So if some can be held responsible then it's better than the alternative.

Of course it is. Prior to and during the disaster there were a series of absolute f**k ups. After it there has been an orchestrated campaign of disinformation and deliberate interference with evidence and it's all been co-ordinated at senior levels.

What this does is it destroys confidence in the police - such as it is/was. And that's a crying shame for a whole raft of honest guys who do their best as policemen every day. They must be sick of this behaviour from seniors.

[Thereisalight..]

This is what astounds me:

Question 7 - Was there any behaviour on the part of supporters which caused or contributed to the disaster?

Answer - No

So people pushing didn't contribute in any way to what unfolded?! Bullshit

[Todd_is_God]

Irrespective of who was or wasn't to blame, it surely isn't surprising that all of the dead had tickets on them. These would have been the fans at the front of the central pens - in the ground as early as 2pm. They must have had tickets.

Any 'ticketless fans' would surely have gotten in through the opened gate, been at the back, been most likely to survive, and aren't going to admit to being there without a ticket?

[54_and_counting]

Irrespective of who was or wasn't to blame, it surely isn't surprising that all of the dead had tickets on them. These would have been the fans at the front of the central pens - in the ground as early as 2pm. They must have had tickets.

Any 'ticketless fans' would surely have gotten in through the opened gate, been at the back, been most likely to survive, and aren't going to admit to being there without a ticket?

 

incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dundeefc1783]

Irrespective of who was or wasn't to blame, it surely isn't surprising that all of the dead had tickets on them. These would have been the fans at the front of the central pens - in the ground as early as 2pm. They must have had tickets.

Any 'ticketless fans' would surely have gotten in through the opened gate, been at the back, been most likely to survive, and aren't going to admit to being there without a ticket?

Completely wrong.

There were around 30 people who entered the ground after 2.45 who died in the ground. It was so vast that within minutes of them entering the ground they had ended up near the front of the pen

[Theo Snelders]

Irrespective of who was or wasn't to blame, it surely isn't surprising that all of the dead had tickets on them. These would have been the fans at the front of the central pens - in the ground as early as 2pm. They must have had tickets.

Any 'ticketless fans' would surely have gotten in through the opened gate, been at the back, been most likely to survive, and aren't going to admit to being there without a ticket?

 

Nah, watch the film posted earlier.

30 of those who died were let in when gate C was opened.

They were pushed by the crowd to the front in a matter of a few minutes

As noted earlier- Liverpool asked for all tickets to be sent in so they could establish how many was in there. I believe it was not over crowed- apart from the two central pens which the police failed to close off

[Wardy]

There was a girl from one of the videos on the BBC website that had a ticket, but went through the exit barrier, and she ended up at the front of the stand..all caught on camera.

Just watched the TV film from 1996 there. Absolutely horrible. I'm glad I can safely go to a football match without anything like that happening again.

[Desert Nomad]

Irrespective of who was or wasn't to blame, it surely isn't surprising that all of the dead had tickets on them. These would have been the fans at the front of the central pens - in the ground as early as 2pm. They must have had tickets.

Any 'ticketless fans' would surely have gotten in through the opened gate, been at the back, been most likely to survive, and aren't going to admit to being there without a ticket?

This is what happens when you blindly post on an internet forum having failed to read any of the facts/evidence. Try again.

[Theo Snelders]

There was a girl from one of the videos on the BBC website that had a ticket, but went through the exit barrier, and she ended up at the front of the stand..all caught on camera.

Just watched the TV film from 1996 there. Absolutely horrible. I'm glad I can safely go to a football match without anything like that happening again.

 

Was that the young woman who lost her brother and potential sister -in-law?

Yeah. we were treated like shite back in the day.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Theo Snelders

[ayrmad]

Was that the young woman who lost her brother and potential sister -in-law?

Yeah. we were treated like shite back in the day.

That attitude's still there at football games, get a dozen of your fans to sing loudly behind our Railway End and the stewards will be there or thereabouts in no time.

Edited April 27, 2016 by ayrmad

[dogmc]

Can the morons 'fans have to be blamed too' just cut out the murdoch hyperbole and point us to the cctv footage on you tube footage which shows individual fans deliberately surging.....can they reference actual witness statements or other evidence from the last two years worth that went in front of the jury that persuades them they know better than the jury??

[Wardy]

Was that the young woman who lost her brother and potential sister -in-law?

Yeah. we were treated like shite back in the day.

Yeah I think so, watched a lot of clips over the last few days.

As I said before, as a kid I did stand at many Rovers games at the old Starks Park. But i would never experience the level of people that were in those pens back in 1989. That whole end of the ground looked so poorly designed it's unreal how games of that kind of magnitude were played there in the first place.

[MarkoRaj]

Can the morons 'fans have to be blamed too' just cut out the murdoch hyperbole and point us to the cctv footage on you tube footage which shows individual fans deliberately surging.....can they reference actual witness statements or other evidence from the last two years worth that went in front of the jury that persuades them they know better than the jury??

Apparently not. I can't tell the thinking behind it, do people think it's edgy or something? It's clear that a lot of them haven't done the slightest bit of research, like the cretin earlier who said it was suspicious that Liverpool fans had been involved in 2 crushes in the same ground. It takes 2 minutes to find out from Wikipedia that there were multiple similar situations that involved other fans.

[peasy23]

I would urge anyone who has the time to go and find the Independent Panel report and read the whole thing. The fact that the game was even at Hillsborough was an act of criminal negligence, no safety certificate and a history of crushing problems. As a result of crushing at the 1981 semi final the decision was taken to put in fences which split the terrace into "pens", those fences directly contributed to the death toll as there was no way for the crowd to go sideways into the ends of the terracing that had space. There was also evidence that the central pens got overcrowded so often that the police had a tactic with a codename to close the gates into the central tunnel, and any officer statements that mentioned that at the time were altered to remove all trace of it. There had also been previous matches where Gate C had to be opened to relieve crushing on Leppings Lane.

I can only think a lot of people who point the finger at the Liverpool fans have no experience of being in an absolute shitehole of a terraced ground with a capacity crowd, I had plenty of scary experiences at Ibrox and Hampden and I'm sure plenty of posters could tell you the same.

[throbber]

Pointing the finger at the Liverpool fans is surely now only done by those who have a personal dislike for their supporters - so no surprise to see a Rangers fan on here voice how the court hearings were unsatisfactory by his standards.

[The Ginger Prince]

Pointing the finger at the Liverpool fans is surely now only done by those who have a personal dislike for their supporters - so no surprise to see a Rangers fan on here voice how the court hearings were unsatisfactory by his standards.

Spot on.

[Ned Nederlander]

FWIW, and possibly already mentioned - this is like an incident happening this year finally getting some sort of resolution in 2043.

[peasy23]

There was an excellent programme on 5live last night with 2 survivors, journalist David Conn, and presented by Kelly Cates who was at Hillsborough on the day. It's available to download as a podcast.

[NewBlue]

Nah, watch the film posted earlier.

30 of those who died were let in when gate C was opened.

They were pushed by the crowd to the front in a matter of a few minutes

As noted earlier- Liverpool asked for all tickets to be sent in so they could establish how many was in there. I believe it was not over crowed- apart from the two central pens which the police failed to close off

 

I believe looking at the info I have seen there was around 10,000 tickets allocated for the terraces. Looking a the numbers through the turnstiles when they opened the exit gates they where at just over half capacity, meaning in theory there was room for the fans they let through the exit gates. Even if there were ticketless fans it wasn't the issue.

Edited April 28, 2016 by NewBlue

[Ivo den Bieman]

I'm very well aware of that story, hence why I mentioned it as an example of a tragedy where there is "blame". Was there blanket coverage of it on every bleeding news broadcast or pages and pages of it in newspapers like Hillsborough has been? No is the answer

 

and?

 

there is prima facie evidence- and now a jury's verdict- that the police, ambulance, football authorities and stadium owners were responsible for what unfolded at Hillsborough in 1989.

 

sadly, given the amount of time that's passed, there will unlikley ever be proof of Martin Fletcher's theory about Bradford although I hope he continues to pursue it doggedly. It certainly stinks.

 

still, just so it doesn't annoy you by being on TV too often, maybe he should just sit down and shut up about it. Why should he try and find answers as to why three of his family members burned alive in an unsafe stand...it might annoy some thick knuckle-dragger in Ayr.