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Hillsborough debate

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Don`t know if anybody else has been watching the debate in the House Of Commons this evening, but it seems the families of the 96 people who tragically died at Hillsborough, might finally be getting some form of justice in the release of the papers relating to the disaster. There`s been a lot of fairly emotional stuff from various MP`s over the course of the evening.

Also full marks to Richard Keys & Andy Gray on Talksport last week, some very emotional interviews from various people involved. I was only 9 at the time, but clearly remember the tannoy at Tannadice(during a reserve game against Rangers) telling us there were major problems, then getting home and watching the news bulletins. I wasn`t really aware at the time as to the details of what went on, but suffice to say I can remember the extent of the tradgedy.

Guardian thread

BBC link

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First (and probably last) time I have ever watched a House of Commons debate live for over 4 hours. Alison McGovern was amazing. Really emotional listening to her.

The truth is going to come out now, I am so glad for the families.

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there not going to like it when the truth turns out to be scousers kept on pushing each other rather than having respect for the other people around them.

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Just watched Steve Rotheram's speech. Very emotive. However, I am unsure what more is to be uncovered beyond what is already out there. Maybe it just needs an official, all at once full disclosure with a couple of apologies from the guilty parties, and that can hopefully give people some closure.

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Just watched Steve Rotheram's speech. Very emotive. However, I am unsure what more is to be uncovered beyond what is already out there. Maybe it just needs an official, all at once full disclosure with a couple of apologies from the guilty parties, and that can hopefully give people some closure.

doubt it.

i expect decades more world class wallowing on merseyside.

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The truth is that too many drunken ticketless Scousers crowded in too small an area, and crushed others to death. Despite being warned not to show up without a ticket. The only ones responsible for this are those who broke the law, not any of the officials at Hillsborough.

Heysel, anyone?

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They better hope they release an edited version of the "truth", because if there is even the suggestion that the behaviour of the fans was anything less than perfect, with the famed scouse respect for ticketing arrangements (see Heysel, Istanbul, Hillsborough, in fact, anything with Liverpool fans involved), there will be carnage. Poor innocent scousers will be smashing each others heads open with paving slabs in outrage that their good name is sullied.

What do you expect is hidden? What is this "truth"?

That isn't to say it was all the Liverpool fans fault, but there seems to be blame on all sides, and I don't see what "the truth" is going to be other than a rehashing of what is already known.

Edited by xbl

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TSAR and Stella make good points on the sort of 'truth' expected here.

I believe the events have been well enough set out previously. It's what flavour any enquiry chooses or is led toward.

Certainly the 'behaviour of ticketless fans' vs 'the police fucked up' is the popcorn argument. But does falling one side or another create that truth.

I'm sorry for the families of the victims, no-one should die attending a football match, but it was a different society, a different mentality about going to the games in those days and the effects of the Taylor report unquestionably made football safer and for the English turned it from a bit of a nasty issue in society into the huge big money stuff it is now.

A heck of a sacrifice to create the EPL behemoth, but would the game have changed otherwise?

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Liverpool and Celtic fans must take notes from each other, they're both "oppressed" and everything is a "conspiracy" against them, and they're both extremely scummy people.

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There is wrong-doing on both sides. The LFC fans seem oblivious to the fact that they had a major impact on that tragic day. The Police/Government (obviously siding with the police) for there almost immediate reaction that it was "fook all to do with us guv, honest"

Oh, and I agree with Chico. If it had not been for the loss of so many lives, EPL football would not be where it is now .

Even now, I find it difficult to watch the footage of the incident

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They better hope they release an edited version of the "truth", because if there is even the suggestion that the behaviour of the fans was anything less than perfect, with the famed scouse respect for ticketing arrangements (see Heysel, Istanbul, Hillsborough, in fact, anything with Liverpool fans involved), there will be carnage. Poor innocent scousers will be smashing each others heads open with paving slabs in outrage that their good name is sullied.

What do you expect is hidden? What is this "truth"?

That isn't to say it was all the Liverpool fans fault, but there seems to be blame on all sides, and I don't see what "the truth" is going to be other than a rehashing of what is already known.

You should really have put that in size 28 font, because god knows the majority of Liverpool "fans" won't read it. I genuinely think some Liverpool fans expect the government to turn around and say "it's a fair cop, it was all the fault of the police and nothing whatsoever to do with drunken troublemakers. No sir." What happens if the enquiry or whatever it is happens know ends up saying "actually, we still think the police were within their rights to act the way they did" or even "inebriated Liverpool fans made the problem even greater?" Is that the right kind of truth, or is the truth only what people want to hear?

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Don`t know if anybody else has been watching the debate in the House Of Commons this evening, but it seems the families of the 96 people who tragically died at Hillsborough, might finally be getting some form of justice in the release of the papers relating to the disaster. There`s been a lot of fairly emotional stuff from various MP`s over the course of the evening.

Also full marks to Richard Keys & Andy Gray on Talksport last week, some very emotional interviews from various people involved. I was only 9 at the time, but clearly remember the tannoy at Tannadice(during a reserve game against Rangers) telling us there were major problems, then getting home and watching the news bulletins. I wasn`t really aware at the time as to the details of what went on, but suffice to say I can remember the extent of the tradgedy.

Guardian thread

BBC link

i love the way people keep saying " justice for the families" implying they were all innocent.it will be justice for the police when this is done the bottom line is that yet again to many druken ticketless scouser reapetedly ignored police advice.

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You should really have put that in size 28 font, because god knows the majority of Liverpool "fans" won't read it. I genuinely think some Liverpool fans expect the government to turn around and say "it's a fair cop, it was all the fault of the police and nothing whatsoever to do with drunken troublemakers. No sir." What happens if the enquiry or whatever it is happens know ends up saying "actually, we still think the police were within their rights to act the way they did" or even "inebriated Liverpool fans made the problem even greater?" Is that the right kind of truth, or is the truth only what people want to hear?

I've always gotten the impression that the campaigners only expect one outcome and that that outcome would (in their minds) be an admission of culpability by those in charge and a number of civil suits thereafter.

An honest and open disclosure would, of course, show that both sides were at fault and that the whole thing could have been avoided but it really depends whether this disclosure is made in a "here's the facts" kind of way, or, as XBL highlights, whether it is "flavoured" one way or another.

Regardless, those with agendas will not be satisfied no matter how full and frank the outcome and I expect this nonsense persecution complex stuff to rumble on regardless afterwards, and I say that as a Liverpool fan.

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There's 3 sides to every story, mine yours and the truth.

The truth will be somewhere in the middle of the official account and the fans account. There's no way Liverpool fans were as innocent as they are trying to make themselves out to be, equally there's no way the police can't take on a good proportion of the blame.

Let's hope this will finally bring some closure to the tragedy.

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Youngsters getting pissed before going to the football....How many of you at 12,13 and 14 years old got pissed up before going to a football game?

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As I said before, the only certainty is :-

Fault :-

Liverpool fans - something > 0% and < 100%

Authorities (various) - something > 0% and < 100%

What people cannot claim (I'm looking at you here fuerodeljuego) is that in their opinion the Liverpool fans are blameless. This is just factually incorrect and not at all helpful. The Taylor Report itself, much held up by those who espouse this incorrect view, actually blames Liverpool fans in part.

Once you accept that, you can actually begin to establish to what extent they were at fault.

Edited by H_B

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utter crap and drivel posted on here, read the taylor report, if just 1 copper had shut the gates at the tunnell leading into pens 3&4 and thus fans had gone into the side pens it would not have happened. Doesnt matter how pissed the LFC fans were the police failed to manage the safety of the fans in the ground that day as the central pens were full at 2.10pm and the crush didnt happen until 2.55. South Yorkshire police not the fans are the murderers and yet David Duckenfield the match commander walks free

JTF96 YNWA

This is why any debate gets shut down. :(

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i love the way people keep saying " justice for the families" implying they were all innocent.it will be justice for the police when this is done the bottom line is that yet again to many druken ticketless scouser reapetedly ignored police advice.

Any chance of telling us which of the dead football fans, weren't innocent?

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Any chance of telling us which of the dead football fans, weren't innocent?

Yep, good point. It's hardly their fault, or their family's fault.

I'm surprised though that none of them have looked a bit closer to home to point some fingers though, to my knowledge anyway. Perhaps privately they balme their fellow Liverpool fans, but know the difficulty in articulating that in public, with the Scouse victimhood obsession likely to take unkindly to that.

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