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Barry Ferguson was a very good player. Underrated by a lot of Scots for no good reason whatsoever. Some of the shite Lex has come out with has been shocking. Barry Ferguson played very well for Blackburn when he played. Which was whenever he was fit.

You're a week late with this rubbish. Maybe you can tell me why all the big clubs never signed Barry Ferguson though? Because no one else can.

There's nothing to suggest that Jordan Rhodes can't do the business at a higher level. Lesser players at Championship level have gone on and done it. Guys like Holt and Lambert. So why can't Rhodes?

I love this line of thinking, it's becoming common place. Holt and Lambert, Holt and Lambert, HOLT AND LAMBERT!! Two guys yeah. Why don't we list the 200 Championship strikers who haven't made it in the EPL?

True, but it's just possible that they're missing a trick here, no?

Maybe. Maybe all the top scouts and managers are wrong about Rhodes. The tartan army is right and these guys are all wrong! Just like they were wrong about Ferguson...? :lol:

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It would also be fair to suggest Holt hasn't had anything like the impact he had last season. Players with limited ability get found out.

Holt has, Jelavic is another example. Good players but good enough for the very top? No, not a chance. Wouldn't surprise me if the same happens to Lambert next year.

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On these boards, it seems that Rhodes is either a messiah or he's useless.

He's neither. But in terms of Scotland, he's the sharpest looking candidate I've seen in years. He's not a rubber-legged Faustino Asprilla box of tricks type forward, but he is a direct, strong, clinical frontman who leads the line well. When did we last have a player scoring that many goals at a good level who could lead the line and finish (Boyd and Miller could do one or the other)? Some might say Steven Fletcher, and I'd agree he deserves a chance. Likewise, Rhodes has scored 30 goals at Championship level but some clowns on here reckon that doesn't warrant a game for Scotland?

If no player is good enough for Scotland until they are banging in goals in the Champs League, then we might as well go back to 4-6-0.

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It would also be fair to suggest Holt hasn't had anything like the impact he had last season. Players with limited ability get found out.

I'd wager that it has more to do with Norwich simply not being as good under Hughton, and therefore not as many chances going to Holt.

The listing Championship strikes that haven't done it at EPL level is stupid. Some will make it and most won't. Why am I still not seeing actual reasons as to why Rhodes wouldn't? Is it his ability in the air? Finishing? Movement? What is it about Rhodes that makes him so untouchable for EPL clubs?

I'll actually ask the same questions about Barry Ferguson as well actually. What do we reckon he was missing Lex?

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I'd wager that it has more to do with Norwich simply not being as good under Hughton, and therefore not as many chances going to Holt.

The listing Championship strikes that haven't done it at EPL level is stupid. Some will make it and most won't. Why am I still not seeing actual reasons as to why Rhodes wouldn't? Is it his ability in the air? Finishing? Movement? What is it about Rhodes that makes him so untouchable for EPL clubs?

I'll actually ask the same questions about Barry Ferguson as well actually. What do we reckon he was missing Lex?

Ah, you're missing the point. It's because other Chanpionship players have failed in the EPL in the past. Therefore, obviously, Rhodes cannot possibly play at EPL level. How I laughed at my foolish notions that he could when I realised this.

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I'd wager that it has more to do with Norwich simply not being as good under Hughton, and therefore not as many chances going to Holt.

There's also his complete inability to get the remotest look-in at international level, which he was plainly gunning for. Unsurprising he'd be demotivated upon hitting that glass ceiling.

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I'd wager that it has more to do with Norwich simply not being as good under Hughton, and therefore not as many chances going to Holt.

The listing Championship strikes that haven't done it at EPL level is stupid. Some will make it and most won't. Why am I still not seeing actual reasons as to why Rhodes wouldn't? Is it his ability in the air? Finishing? Movement? What is it about Rhodes that makes him so untouchable for EPL clubs?

I'll actually ask the same questions about Barry Ferguson as well actually. What do we reckon he was missing Lex?

Fair post, but I just think the fact that there is clearly such a reluctance by successive managers to play Rhodes up by himself suggest a harmony in scepticism about his readiness/ability. Admittedly our current and previous manager are halfwits, but couple that with the fact that Rhodes hasn't played a single minute of top flight football and there's at least some reason to be wary. This, of course, will all change if somebody comes in for Rhodes this summer. If that happens, and Rhodes is still only a bit part player, then it just shows up Strachan as being incompetent.

The other problem here is that very few of us, I suspect, watch Rhodes on a regular basis. Why would we? He plays for Blackburn. He could, actually, just be Kris Boyd-lite. I suspect that's how he's looked upon, actually, by Strachan. I don't see him often enough to say if that's fair or not.

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I'd wager that it has more to do with Norwich simply not being as good under Hughton, and therefore not as many chances going to Holt.

The listing Championship strikes that haven't done it at EPL level is stupid. Some will make it and most won't. Why am I still not seeing actual reasons as to why Rhodes wouldn't? Is it his ability in the air? Finishing? Movement? What is it about Rhodes that makes him so untouchable for EPL clubs?

Well you're more than happy with listing strikers that have made it. The vast majority won't. Maybe Rhodes will be in the minority that do, he probably won't be though.

I was unconvinced but had a relatively open mind about Rhodes until i seen him play in Serbia. That was one of his first competitive games at the top level in his career. He was so out of his depth it was ridiculous and gave the worst striking performance i've ever seen in a Scotland jersey.

Since then i've seen him play a couple of times for Blackburn. There's obviously several reasons why the Premier League clubs aren't interested in him, let's be honest, it's very unlikely they're all wrong. Personally, i don't think he's good enough with his back to goal nor has he got the physical attributes for the very top.

Compare him to strikers like Benteke and Lukaku. Both of those players are younger than Rhodes and play in the same number 9 position. Does anyone believe Jordan is even in the same bracket as these guys? He's not as tall, as fast or as strong as either of them. He's a class behind them, an obvious class behind them. That's why they are both in the EPL scoring goals and he is in the Championship. That's why Benteke and Lukaku will likely develop into top level Champions League strikers and Rhodes likely won't.

I'll actually ask the same questions about Barry Ferguson as well actually. What do we reckon he was missing Lex?

You're answering my question with a question? I imagine all the top clubs never signed Ferguson because they didn't think he was good enough. What you think?

On these boards, it seems that Rhodes is either a messiah or he's useless.

He's neither. But in terms of Scotland, he's the sharpest looking candidate I've seen in years. He's not a rubber-legged Faustino Asprilla box of tricks type forward, but he is a direct, strong, clinical frontman who leads the line well. When did we last have a player scoring that many goals at a good level who could lead the line and finish (Boyd and Miller could do one or the other)? Some might say Steven Fletcher, and I'd agree he deserves a chance. Likewise, Rhodes has scored 30 goals at Championship level but some clowns on here reckon that doesn't warrant a game for Scotland?

If no player is good enough for Scotland until they are banging in goals in the Champs League, then we might as well go back to 4-6-0.

I never once said he wasn't good enough for Scotland. The depressing thing is, he is good enough for us. He's good enough for us because we don't really have much alternative. My point is he's not any better than guys we already have. Fletcher's clearly our best striker, he's our only striker scoring goals regularly at the top level.

Behind him we have guys like Mackail-Smith, George Boyd, Jordan Rhodes, Jonny Russell and Leigh Griffiths. Neither of them are playing at the top level but they're all scoring goals at a secondary level. I don't really think there's much between either of them to be honest, I'd say Griffiths is the most talented out the group but is hampered by that fact that he is a nutter.

What i don't get is why Rhodes is getting all this hype and the others aren't. He's just another striker who's unproven at the top level and at international level, yet scored some goals at a lower level, we have plenty of those. These players aren't capable of taking us to a major championship sadly and it will be another generation of status quo if these are this is the best kind of player we are producing. If we had a Benteke or a Lukaku coming through, they are the kind of players you could imagine being good enough to lead us to a finals. Rhodes? No.

Ah, you're missing the point. It's because other Chanpionship players have failed in the EPL in the past. Therefore, obviously, Rhodes cannot possibly play at EPL level. How I laughed at my foolish notions that he could when I realised this.

Again, never said he cannot play at EPL level. What i did say is that based on evidence and precedent he is unlikely to be a success at EPL level.

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I never once said he wasn't good enough for Scotland. The depressing thing is, he is good enough for us. He's good enough for us because we don't really have much alternative. My point is he's not any better than guys we already have. Fletcher's clearly our best striker, he's our only striker scoring goals regularly at the top level.

I don't see how its depressing he's good enough for Scotland. We have far too high standards in this country, we've been lucky in the past (70's and 80's in particular) where we've had quality players in abundance. However we've had a severe lack for the past 15 years. I agree Fletcher is probably the better striker all round but did anyone say he was gonna succeed in the EPL when he was at Burnley? Doubt it. Rhodes has had one start in a qualifier and it was on a ridiculously sodden pitch in serbia. You can't argue he's a player who if you give him chances he'll score goals.

What i don't get is why Rhodes is getting all this hype and the others aren't. He's just another striker who's unproven at the top level and at international level, yet scored some goals at a lower level, we have plenty of those. These players aren't capable of taking us to a major championship sadly and it will be another generation of status quo if these are this is the best kind of player we are producing. If we had a Benteke or a Lukaku coming through, they are the kind of players you could imagine being good enough to lead us to a finals. Rhodes? No.

Rhodes is getting the hype because he got 40 plus goals for Huddersfield in league one, then got 30 odd goals in the championship for Huddersfield and Blackburn who were borderline relegation candidates. He's had the pressure of a big money move and relegation pressure to handle and he's come up with the goods. The plenty of other players you spoke of like Mccormack, Mckail Smith etc have scored goals in Championship but haven't scored as many as Rhodes. (mccormacks been close) But i'll agree he isn't of a Lukaku or Benteke ilk in terms of Speed and skill. But theres no reason he can't be a shearer, Phillips, Cole, Sheringham in terms of goalscoring.

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I agree with Presters on this. For the last, what, 20 years (during which time we qualified for 5 tourneys), Scotland's strikers have been from the following echelons:

a)Premiership toilers (Gallacher, McFadden, S Fletcher)
b)Championship goal-getters (McGinlay, Miller)
c)SPL goal-getters (McCoist, Johnstone)

So Jordan Rhodes scoring 30 in the Championship is hardly a new low. in fact, it is arguably better than any of the above have managed and the promise is there that he won't be a one-season wonder (already had four seasons of prolific scoring in a row). We will see Rhodes in the EPL at some point and I imagine it will be to a Sunderland or a West Ham. I'm pretty encouraged by this. I'd love Chelsea to pop Feruz on the bench next season and have him coming on to score wonder goals and be the next great hope (or some other teen prospect), but until then, Rhodes looks like a cracking option for us.

PS, the Kris Boyd-lite analogy is definitely one that comes from folk who haven't watched JR play. His work rate is excellent and his movement is first class.

PPS He was utter shite in the Serbia game. No quibble with that. There were 10 others just as cack as him that night though, and a fair few worse.

EDIT: I meant 25 ish years - basically since Kenny Dalglish retired

Edited by Gordopolis
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I agree with Presters on this. For the last, what, 20 years (during which time we qualified for 5 tourneys), Scotland's strikers have been from the following echelons:

a)Premiership toilers (Gallacher, McFadden, S Fletcher)

b)Championship goal-getters (McGinlay, Miller)

c)SPL goal-getters (McCoist, Johnstone)

So Jordan Rhodes scoring 30 in the Championship is hardly a new low. in fact, it is arguably better than any of the above have managed and the promise is there that he won't be a one-season wonder (already had four seasons of prolific scoring in a row). We will see Rhodes in the EPL at some point and I imagine it will be to a Sunderland or a West Ham. I'm pretty encouraged by this. I'd love Chelsea to pop Feruz on the bench next season and have him coming on to score wonder goals and be the next great hope (or some other teen prospect), but until then, Rhodes looks like a cracking option for us.

PS, the Kris Boyd-lite analogy is definitely one that comes from folk who haven't watched JR play. His work rate is excellent and his movement is first class.

PPS He was utter shite in the Serbia game. No quibble with that. There were 10 others just as cack as him that night though, and a fair few worse.

I agree with Presters on this. For the last, what, 20 years (during which time we qualified for 5 tourneys), Scotland's strikers have been from the following echelons:

a)Premiership toilers (Gallacher, McFadden, S Fletcher)

b)Championship goal-getters (McGinlay, Miller)

c)SPL goal-getters (McCoist, Johnstone)

So Jordan Rhodes scoring 30 in the Championship is hardly a new low. in fact, it is arguably better than any of the above have managed and the promise is there that he won't be a one-season wonder (already had four seasons of prolific scoring in a row). We will see Rhodes in the EPL at some point and I imagine it will be to a Sunderland or a West Ham. I'm pretty encouraged by this. I'd love Chelsea to pop Feruz on the bench next season and have him coming on to score wonder goals and be the next great hope (or some other teen prospect), but until then, Rhodes looks like a cracking option for us.

PS, the Kris Boyd-lite analogy is definitely one that comes from folk who haven't watched JR play. His work rate is excellent and his movement is first class.

PPS He was utter shite in the Serbia game. No quibble with that. There were 10 others just as cack as him that night though, and a fair few worse.

Kris Boyd's movement is also first class.

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See, that's better Lex. A good post with your own viewpoints rather than the "nobody else likes him" shite.

The physical attributes thing is something we have to disagree on for two reasons. Firstly, he has them. When he's over the ball, he's not coming off it nine times out of ten, or at least, not getting muscled from it. He seems to know how to use his body in any given situation as well which is good. Your point about him with his back to goal is a fair one. Secondly, Lewandowski seems to have carved a career, and gets flimsily just shoved away from the ball on a consistant basis, so I don't think it's a vital thing, or at least as vital as you think.

Still wondering what it is with Barry Ferguson though. Your OWN views. Not those you THINK other clubs have.

Boyd's workrate since his last season at Rangers has been very good btw, and he has a lot of things going for him. Forest had him more as a false 9 and he did surprisingly well in that role. Boyd is underrated more than anything else.

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See, that's better Lex. A good post with your own viewpoints rather than the "nobody else likes him" shite.

The physical attributes thing is something we have to disagree on for two reasons. Firstly, he has them. When he's over the ball, he's not coming off it nine times out of ten, or at least, not getting muscled from it. He seems to know how to use his body in any given situation as well which is good. Your point about him with his back to goal is a fair one. Secondly, Lewandowski seems to have carved a career, and gets flimsily just shoved away from the ball on a consistant basis, so I don't think it's a vital thing, or at least as vital as you think.

Still wondering what it is with Barry Ferguson though. Your OWN views. Not those you THINK other clubs have.

Boyd's workrate since his last season at Rangers has been very good btw, and he has a lot of things going for him. Forest had him more as a false 9 and he did surprisingly well in that role. Boyd is underrated more than anything else.

Interesting re Boyd - as his 'goal-machine' ability has also drained away since his last season at Rangers (I know his career has been pretty patchwork since then). Perhaps that's just it with him, he can mooch and score for fun, or work harder but he becomes a fairly ordinary striker goals-wise for it.

Edited by Gordopolis
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  • 3 weeks later...

.

The physical attributes thing is something we have to disagree on for two reasons. Firstly, he has them. When he's over the ball, he's not coming off it nine times out of ten, or at least, not getting muscled from it. He seems to know how to use his body in any given situation as well which is good. Your point about him with his back to goal is a fair one. Secondly, Lewandowski seems to have carved a career, and gets flimsily just shoved away from the ball on a consistant basis, so I don't think it's a vital thing, or at least as vital as you think.

Still wondering what it is with Barry Ferguson though. Your OWN views. Not those you THINK other clubs have.

Boyd's workrate since his last season at Rangers has been very good btw, and he has a lot of things going for him. Forest had him more as a false 9 and he did surprisingly well in that role. Boyd is underrated more than anything else.

I think alot of questions were answered regarding Jordan Rhodes physical attributes midweek. He comes fresh off the bench to play against defenders who had been playing in the heat for an hour. He couldn't out pace any of them. Griffiths was causing them far more problems with his constant running and niggling and i believe he should have been kept on the pitch. It's no wonder EPL clubs are extremely reticent when it comes to paying top dollar for his services.

I think this will be a problem for Rhodes when it comes to his Scotland career. In most of our competitive games we are going to play one up and concede the majority of the possession to opponents. To be able to play that lone striker role against top class defenders you either need to be superb with your back to goal (which i believe S Fletcher is) or be full of running and pace (which Griffiths is). Rhodes is neither. He's a penalty box player, which is not something Scotland are going to require in the majority of games. He may be good against the minnow nations where we have the majority of possession and chances, but these games are getting fewer and further between as our seeding gets worse.

As for Barry Ferguson. Physically he wasn't up to much and he couldn't compensate for his lack of physicality with superior technical ability. The top clubs and their scouts know more about football than you or i do, so using them as a source to judge players is pretty valid IMO (in my opinion).

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I think alot of questions were answered regarding Jordan Rhodes physical attributes midweek. He comes fresh off the bench to play against defenders who had been playing in the heat for an hour. He couldn't out pace any of them. Griffiths was causing them far more problems with his constant running and niggling and i believe he should have been kept on the pitch. It's no wonder EPL clubs are extremely reticent when it comes to paying top dollar for his services.

I think this will be a problem for Rhodes when it comes to his Scotland career. In most of our competitive games we are going to play one up and concede the majority of the possession to opponents. To be able to play that lone striker role against top class defenders you either need to be superb with your back to goal (which i believe S Fletcher is) or be full of running and pace (which Griffiths is). Rhodes is neither. He's a penalty box player, which is not something Scotland are going to require in the majority of games. He may be good against the minnow nations where we have the majority of possession and chances, but these games are getting fewer and further between as our seeding gets worse.

As for Barry Ferguson. Physically he wasn't up to much and he couldn't compensate for his lack of physicality with superior technical ability. The top clubs and their scouts know more about football than you or i do, so using them as a source to judge players is pretty valid IMO (in my opinion).

I think Griffiths was the right choice to start the other night. Overall, I thought neither he nor Rhodes really got into the game at all. Griffiths is a bit more nippy, definitely, but he looked a few levels off being able to compete against the Croatian defence. Can't really say much good about Rhodes' performance on Friday, he looked slow - though Strachan did say that his month or so since his last competitive game had taken the edge off of him and hence he had chosen Griffiths to start for that very reason. Either way, I think we need to use Rhodes effectively at some point in the games between now and the next campaign to find if he's got it at this level and exactly how he best fits into the team/tactics/formation.

As I said earlier in this thread, we've got three forwards who each offer something different:

-S Fletcher: Battering ram, link up play/lay offs/knock ons

-Rhodes: Deadly & direct finisher, does his bit when opposition have the ball too

-Griffiths: Maverick, likely to do the unexpected, can score goals that neither of the above can

All three of these guys have to answer the question "Can they do it at the very top level", but I think that as a pool, they leave us very well covered. If we can regularly get the midfield and defence operating coherently as they did on Friday, these three strikers should have the perfect platform from which to answer that question.

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  • 6 months later...

He's fantastic, quite a few premiership clubs could do a lot worse than come in for him this month, though personally I think he would be as well to finish the season where he is then go to the premiership in the summer. He is very close to 150 career goals and not yet 24, outstanding player.

Btw for home games against teams we should beat, 4-3-3 with a front 3 of Mcormack, Rhodes and Griffiths would be tremendous, so much talent and so many goals there, night and day from 10 years ago.

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