The Queen of the South thread

[Rjc-1988]

If you are to avoid continually losing really cheap goals from set pieces (and lets be honest we are in a league of our own at this) we need real leadership and organisation at the back. We haven’t had this since the days of Higgy and Dowie. These guys really took ownership of defending our box and bullied their colleagues into doing their jobs. Dobbie as Captain is madness - yes he is arguably our best ever player but he is in completely the wrong position to get things organised and to motivate/organise the defensive shape.Ideally you want a big strong leader at CB skippering the side and really making sure that the midfielders and forwards do the dirty work at set pieces that they probably don’t want to do. Yet again nobody on the posts at corners - why when you bring ten outfield players back to defend a corner you don’t have your two small (non headers) on each post. A player like Robinson was wandering around aimlessly in the box yesterday basically marking “ thin air”. Get him on a post with say Fitzpatrick or McKee and at least you will make it harder for the opposition to score if they get a free header. This is basic stuff and was equally as bad under GN. It is soul destroying to see it happen week after week and with players the size of Nortey, Ayo and Buchanan we should be well capable of defending our box. This is a huge priority as the evidence is now overwhelming.

[19QOS19]

If you are to avoid continually losing really cheap goals from set pieces (and lets be honest we are in a league of our own at this) we need real leadership and organisation at the back. We haven’t had this since the days of Higgy and Dowie. These guys really took ownership of defending our box and bullied their colleagues into doing their jobs. Dobbie as Captain is madness - yes he is arguably our best ever player but he is in completely the wrong position to get things organised and to motivate/organise the defensive shape.Ideally you want a big strong leader at CB skippering the side and really making sure that the midfielders and forwards do the dirty work at set pieces that they probably don’t want to do. Yet again nobody on the posts at corners - why when you bring ten outfield players back to defend a corner you don’t have your two small (non headers) on each post. A player like Robinson was wandering around aimlessly in the box yesterday basically marking “ thin air”. Get him on a post with say Fitzpatrick or McKee and at least you will make it harder for the opposition to score if they get a free header. This is basic stuff and was equally as bad under GN. It is soul destroying to see it happen week after week and with players the size of Nortey, Ayo and Buchanan we should be well capable of defending our box. This is a huge priority as the evidence is now overwhelming.

I agree with your overall points but don't think we need a CB to be captain to make this happen. The CBs and even more so the goalkeeper has to be taking charge at corners regardless of who the captain is. Before the ball is even placed on the corner spot the GK should be making sure we have every attacker marked. The problem with yesterday's goals wasn't that the attacker was unmarked, it was that he lost his marker far too easily. You only have to look back at the goals we have conceded from set pieces to see our players seem to think as soon as the ball has been kicked the marking duties disappear. It's as if they are unaware the attacker is going to try and get away from them!

[Monkey Tennis]

It's a lack of concentration, allied to a lack of organisation.

The thing that gets me is that neither of yesterday's corners were viciously whipped into really difficult places.  Rather they were just floated across towards the area where defenders significantly outnumbered attackers.  Each time, it proved enough. 

Too many switch off when it really matters.  This may owe something to confusion over roles.  There are individual failings in there, alongside the collective one.

[Homer Thompson]

1 hour ago, Rjc-1988 said:

If you are to avoid continually losing really cheap goals from set pieces (and lets be honest we are in a league of our own at this) we need real leadership and organisation at the back. We haven’t had this since the days of Higgy and Dowie. These guys really took ownership of defending our box and bullied their colleagues into doing their jobs. Dobbie as Captain is madness - yes he is arguably our best ever player but he is in completely the wrong position to get things organised and to motivate/organise the defensive shape.Ideally you want a big strong leader at CB skippering the side and really making sure that the midfielders and forwards do the dirty work at set pieces that they probably don’t want to do. Yet again nobody on the posts at corners - why when you bring ten outfield players back to defend a corner you don’t have your two small (non headers) on each post. A player like Robinson was wandering around aimlessly in the box yesterday basically marking “ thin air”. Get him on a post with say Fitzpatrick or McKee and at least you will make it harder for the opposition to score if they get a free header. This is basic stuff and was equally as bad under GN. It is soul destroying to see it happen week after week and with players the size of Nortey, Ayo and Buchanan we should be well capable of defending our box. This is a huge priority as the evidence is now overwhelming.
 

Buchanan is vice captain. Being captain would make no difference at all. 

[Rjc-1988]

The captaincy issue is not just about our appalling set piece record - every successful team has ,almost without exception, had one common denominator .........an inspirational captain or leader on the pitch. Someone who really “shakes the tree” when the pressure is on. Dobbie is a great guy but he is not the right person for that role and in my opinion is not in the best position to influence the performance of others. I am not necessarily advocating Buchanan or anybody else for that matter but a CB or central midfielder is in the best position to really make a difference.Our lack of on field leadership has been a huge negative for several seasons now. We have the makings of a decent side but until we add some grit, determination and a hard edge we will keep under-performing. Finding the right Captain is a key part of of becoming a winning team.

[Sankasouthy]

The captaincy issue is not just about our appalling set piece record - every successful team has ,almost without exception, had one common denominator .........an inspirational captain or leader on the pitch. Someone who really “shakes the tree” when the pressure is on. Dobbie is a great guy but he is not the right person for that role and in my opinion is not in the best position to influence the performance of others. I am not necessarily advocating Buchanan or anybody else for that matter but a CB or central midfielder is in the best position to really make a difference.Our lack of on field leadership has been a huge negative for several seasons now. We have the makings of a decent side but until we add some grit, determination and a hard edge we will keep under-performing. Finding the right Captain is a key part of of becoming a winning team.

Two great posts about the captaincy. Stephen Dobbie is a phenomenal player at Scottish Championship level. I’ve posted before that I don’t think he’s Captain material because over the last few seasons I’ve found that he wants to argue/complain too much at referees ( some poor admittedly) instead of organising/motivating our players.

I’ve always been a believer that the Captain should be a defender or midfielder. It’s far better seeing the game from their positions as opposed to Stephen looking back the way.

An important few weeks coming up. Not only do we need to get another couple of loan defenders on board but we need some points on board early, into this unpredictable season. Been impressed by the standard of players brought in so far on AJ’s very limited budget [emoji106]

[Guest Flash]

46 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

The captaincy issue is not just about our appalling set piece record - every successful team has ,almost without exception, had one common denominator .........an inspirational captain or leader on the pitch. Someone who really “shakes the tree” when the pressure is on. Dobbie is a great guy but he is not the right person for that role and in my opinion is not in the best position to influence the performance of others. I am not necessarily advocating Buchanan or anybody else for that matter but a CB or central midfielder is in the best position to really make a difference.Our lack of on field leadership has been a huge negative for several seasons now. We have the makings of a decent side but until we add some grit, determination and a hard edge we will keep under-performing. Finding the right Captain is a key part of of becoming a winning team.

I agree. But sometimes players just don’t have sufficient desire to win or to not get beat. If they don’t have that, no amount of shouting at them will change it. A captain might get a bit more out of some players. But if they are at the stage to begin with where they can’t even be arsed doing their job at a corner, I can’t see any amount of shouting making a difference.

[Rjc-1988]

I agree. But sometimes players just don’t have sufficient desire to win or to not get beat. If they don’t have that, no amount of shouting at them will change it. A captain might get a bit more out of some players. But if they are at the stage to begin with where they can’t even be arsed doing their job at a corner, I can’t see any amount of shouting making a difference.

I absolutely know what you mean but .......finding a great Captain and better still a few on pitch leaders does not guarantee anything but not finding on field leadership almost certainly guarantees mediocrity at best or abject failure at worst. When we finished 4th (in a very tough league) a few seasons ago - we had a great Captain in Higgins and on field lieutenants in Dowie, McKenna and Burns. The collective gravitas that we got from those players’ will to win was huge. As I see it we have some really talented individuals who all seem to be “playing for themselves”. We desperately need someone to “make us a team”. We haven’t really been a team for several seasons and despite playing well in last 4 games the exact same toothless pattern is establishing itself already. It is the Manager’s primary responsibility to do that and the first step is finding a Captain. If there’s nobody in the ranks we need to sign one and quickly. For me it is a glaring priority.

[Skyline Drifter]

18 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

I absolutely know what you mean but .......finding a great Captain and better still a few on pitch leaders does not guarantee anything but not finding on field leadership almost certainly guarantees mediocrity at best or abject failure at worst. When we finished 4th (in a very tough league) a few seasons ago - we had a great Captain in Higgins and on field lieutenants in Dowie, McKenna and Burns. The collective gravitas that we got from those players’ will to win was huge. As I see it we have some really talented individuals who all seem to be “playing for themselves”. We desperately need someone to “make us a team”. We haven’t really been a team for several seasons and despite playing well in last 4 games the exact same toothless pattern is establishing itself already. It is the Manager’s primary responsibility to do that and the first step is finding a Captain. If there’s nobody in the ranks we need to sign one and quickly. For me it is a glaring priority.

Chris Higgins was an outstanding captain. And I'll given you McKenna as a vocal "lieutenant" if you like. Dowser was one of the quietest big guys I've ever met. He did his talking with his play. He barely spoke in the dressing room and wasn't especially vocal on the pitch either. I'm not sure Burns was particularly vocal either.

John Rankin was also an outstanding captain incidentally. He was a better captain than he was player by the time he got to us.

[Distant Doonhamer]

Chris Higgins was an outstanding captain. And I'll given you McKenna as a vocal "lieutenant" if you like. Dowser was one of the quietest big guys I've ever met. He did his talking with his play. He barely spoke in the dressing room and wasn't especially vocal on the pitch either. I'm not sure Burns was particularly vocal either.
John Rankin was also an outstanding captain incidentally. He was a better captain than he was player by the time he got to us.

All true SD but players can lead by example rather than vocally. Dowie did that and Burns was a leader in his own way too. Your example of John Rankin is sound. A player who can get a lot out of his teammates despite his play being on the wane.

[Skyline Drifter]

9 hours ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

All true SD but players can lead by example rather than vocally. Dowie did that and Burns was a leader in his own way too. 

I am aware of this but presumably rjc is not attempting to use these players as players who "led by example" whilst suggesting the greatest player in our modern history is not capable of that? 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[Rjc-1988]

What I am saying is that in any walk of life the most talented team members don’t necessarily make the best captains or leaders. In fact in the vast majority of cases the most talented technically gifted individual usually fails as a leader because they tend to be people who are more interested in their own performance as opposed to that of the wider team. It is not a criticism it is a fact. There are exceptions but not many.

I am sure that all players admire and respect Dobbie’s ability and personality but I think we definitely need a change. While Dobbie has largely flourished as an individual the team has underperformed for several seasons. As others have said we haven’t actually won a competitive game this year. You only need to stand back and take an overview of the number of games that we repeatedly draw or lose from a seemingly dominant position. Worse still the goals that we lose from corners is defying every statistician ............the expected scoring return from corners is less than 1.5 in a hundred. Conceding a corner shouldn’t set off alarm bells but our record is truly horrific. Of course this is not the existing Captain’s fault but we need a change and we also need to find that collective “will to win” that we had in spades under Higgy but haven’t come close to replicating since he left.

[qos1990]

What I am saying is that in any walk of life the most talented team members don’t necessarily make the best captains or leaders. In fact in the vast majority of cases the most talented technically gifted individual usually fails as a leader because they tend to be people who are more interested in their own performance as opposed to that of the wider team. It is not a criticism it is a fact. There are exceptions but not many.

I am sure that all players admire and respect Dobbie’s ability and personality but I think we definitely need a change. While Dobbie has largely flourished as an individual the team has underperformed for several seasons. As others have said we haven’t actually won a competitive game this year. You only need to stand back and take an overview of the number of games that we repeatedly draw or lose from a seemingly dominant position. Worse still the goals that we lose from corners is defying every statistician ............the expected scoring return from corners is less than 1.5 in a hundred. Conceding a corner shouldn’t set off alarm bells but our record is truly horrific. Of course this is not the existing Captain’s fault but we need a change and we also need to find that collective “will to win” that we had in spades under Higgy but haven’t come close to replicating since he left.

I don’t think changing our captain is going fix this... work on the training ground, and players taking responsibility for their men will.

[Rjc-1988]

I don’t think changing our captain is going fix this... work on the training ground, and players taking responsibility for their men will.

I don’t think there will be a change in captaincy in the same way that there will not be a change in our defensive set up at corners and set pieces. Until there is expect the same results but I hope I’m wrong.

[Fae_the_'briggs]

I don't really buy all this about team captains having to be vociferous  leaders, obviously it's a benefit,  but to me their purpose,  during matches anyway, is to lead the team out,  decide on the coin-toss and maybe have a bit more leeway talking to the referee about decisions.  Off the park and in the dressing room it may be different,  your Club Captain is probably the link between the players the Management and Directors. He'll be the one players go to with grievances,  etc.  Some teams have goalies as Captains,  usually experienced players or long servants with the Club,  they're probably in the worst position to instruct/cajole players during a game.  Chris Higgins,   is one example mentioned as being a good Captain on and off the park  but would he have been any less vocal or commanding/demanding  if he wasn't captain?  Mike Doyle could be vocal and demanding but didn't need an armband to be like that.  The most senior players in any team should be expected to take responsibility during games,  not relying on one man. 

[FrankReynolds]

Can't believe there's a discussion about Dobbie having the armband or not. He does a hell of a lot more for the club than what you see on the pitch. No other player in the squad could match what he does and the way he does it, he's captain material and just because he plays higher up the pitch doesn't mean he can't be captain. He leads by example and it's pretty evident every player who comes to play here looks up to him and looks forward to learning from him. 

[Distant Doonhamer]

I’ve no issue at all with Dobbie being captain. The real issue for me here is about other players stepping up to the plate and providing leadership on the pitch.

[Skyline Drifter]

21 minutes ago, FrankReynolds said:

Can't believe there's a discussion about Dobbie having the armband or not. He does a hell of a lot more for the club than what you see on the pitch. No other player in the squad could match what he does and the way he does it, he's captain material and just because he plays higher up the pitch doesn't mean he can't be captain. He leads by example and it's pretty evident every player who comes to play here looks up to him and looks forward to learning from him. 

I can't believe we're seriously entertaining the laughable notion that whether Dobbie is any good as captain or not has the slightest relevance to our defending of set pieces. I think rjc has completely lost the plot here.

[Fae_the_'briggs]

17 minutes ago, FrankReynolds said:

Can't believe there's a discussion about Dobbie having the armband or not. He does a hell of a lot more for the club than what you see on the pitch. No other player in the squad could match what he does and the way he does it, he's captain material and just because he plays higher up the pitch doesn't mean he can't be captain. He leads by example and it's pretty evident every player who comes to play here looks up to him and looks forward to learning from him. 

Personally I'm not saying Dobbie shouldn't be Captain, but the role of captain ON THE PITCH is often overstated imo.  In the dressing room and in other off-pitch activities I'm sure he's the very man to be Captain because of his stature within the Club but if there are other experienced pros in the side they should all take some responsibility in instructing or helping teammates during games.    If you have a team of quiet players or players who are only focused on their own game then you need one or two of the others to be seen as the leaders 

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

I’ve no issue at all with Dobbie being captain. The real issue for me here is about other players stepping up to the plate and providing leadership on the pitch.

Yes, nail on head.

Rjc is right in identifying a lack of leadership playing a part in our continually shambolic defending against crosses.  It therefore doesn't necessarily need a huge leap to relate this to the captaincy.

Captaincy and leadership are related, but not synonymous however.  The fact that so many seem unsure of their responsibilities also throws into question the leadership on offer all week, between matches.