The Queen of the South thread

[Homer Thompson]

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

2 hours ago, SueSue said:

I think I am going to disagree with you on this one. With more players on the market and less contracts to be given out players are more likely to take a deal earlier to at least secure themselves for the season rather than risk no deal at all.

But I don't think our quality will improve dramatically regardless. Hypothetically, a player who was in a mid to lower league Premiership team last season (or even a Championship player in the top 5 last season) is sitting out of contract and QoS approach him 2 months before the season starts with a deal. Do you genuinely believe he is going to sign because we got there first?

Its also relative. There is a chance we might be able to pick up a better standard of player because the clubs above us cut their squads and it becomes a buyers market. But, we're not the only buyer.

I agree with you, Im not hugely convinced this summer will be that different to others. There is always a surplus of player but the better ones always hang on thinking their agent can get them a better offer.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the loan market this season too. Will there be as many players available from bigger clubs? Will they want higher wage contributions to reduce their own costs, or will they take less, happy to get any savings?

Edited July 14, 2020 by Mr X

[SueSue]

13 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Its also relative. There is a chance we might be able to pick up a better standard of player because the clubs above us cut their squads and it becomes a buyers market. But, we're not the only buyer.

I agree with you, Im not hugely convinced this summer will be that different to others. There is always a surplus of player but the better ones always hang on thinking their agent can get them a better offer.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the loan market this season too. Will there be as many players available from bigger clubs? Will they want higher wage contributions to reduce their own costs, or will they take less, happy to get any savings?

I agree with you but your last paragraph and all the questions and unknowns you rightly mention, means that this Summer is going to be different to what has been before.

I just can’t help think that Queens could have offered a player like Paton as good a part time contract as East Kilbride, with Championship football to boot.

 

[Scottydog]

24 minutes ago, SueSue said:

I agree with you but your last paragraph and all the questions and unknowns you rightly mention, means that this Summer is going to be different to what has been before.

I just can’t help think that Queens could have offered a player like Paton as good a part time contract as East Kilbride, with Championship football to boot.

 

But in reality can Queens match EK?  I doubt it, clubs like EK & Kelty (and Cove) are much better financed than many teams in the Championship including my own team.

[19QOS19]

But in reality can Queens match EK?  I doubt it, clubs like EK & Kelty (and Cove) are much better financed than many teams in the Championship including my own team.

Makes you wonder why they are going for dross like Paul Paton and Lewis Kidd really.

[SueSue]

15 minutes ago, Scottydog said:

But in reality can Queens match EK?  I doubt it, clubs like EK & Kelty (and Cove) are much better financed than many teams in the Championship including my own team.

That’s kind of my question. Just how much these clubs are actually spending

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, SueSue said:

That’s kind of my question. Just how much these clubs are actually spending

Through expected bonuses, Chris Erskine will earn more at East Kilbride than he did at Livingston last season...

[Scottydog]

1 minute ago, SueSue said:

That’s kind of my question. Just how much these clubs are actually spending

A lot more than we have. Barry Ferguson has allegedly a bigger playing budget than some Championship sides and apparently that doesn't include certain individuals on special deals.

It's crazy 2 clubs were trying to sign David Goodwilly last January but couldn't match the deal Clyde were offering 3 yrs at £1k/week, I say Clyde but it was supposedly being financed independently. Look at any of these teams and you find wealthy backers lurking within. Brora, East Kilbride and Kelty are all just versions of Gretna, and you know how that ended.

[19QOS19]

I wouldn't want David Goodwillie at my club even if he played for free.

[Homer Thompson]

5 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I wouldn't want David Goodwillie at my club even if he played for free.

You almost redeemed yourself there .... almost

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Scottydog said:

But in reality can Queens match EK?  I doubt it, clubs like EK & Kelty (and Cove) are much better financed than many teams in the Championship including my own team.

I think that's an exaggeration. EK pay decent money at Lowland League level but I doubt they could actually outbid even a part time Championship side like Arbroath or Alloa for a player if the Championship side really wanted them. I'd be willing to bet both ourselves and Raith have a bigger player budget than EK. Not by a massive amount but it will be bigger. A player like Lewis Kidd possibly fancies going part time at a decent part time wage at a club where he'll play ever week and probably be one of the better players. Kidd wasn't a regular starter for us last season and wasn't a regular starter in 3 previous seasons at Falkirk either. Paul Paton is in his mid 30's now and stepping back from full time football. There's no certainty he'd have got a full time offer anyway despite bouncing back to a semi reasonable year at Dunfermline last season. Even their fans were split on whether he should have been retained. He was awful with Falkirk the year before.

I don't think EK are competing with full time Championship sides really. I have a rough idea what they were paying 1st team players last year. I know less about Cove and Kelty but suspect their budgets are both bigger than EK's.

[baw heid]

In my view the important point is not a timing issue, it is an ability to issue contracts when the manager is on furlough.  It is clear that EK, Kelty Annan and even Stranraer have someone in employ as new contracts are being processed or they are in breach of the furlough law and could be subject to a hefty HMRC fine. Wonder if our Board members are on furlough as well, if not we might get players contracted by the Board and not the manager. Could be worth a try? 

[Brother Grimm]

This Summer is totally different to any pre season previously.
Players will accept deals earlier due to he number of players out of contract. 
 
The club signed Brownlie and Holt last May so it has got it in them to act earlier.
 

As Skyline Drifter pointed out on another thread via some Ayr fan, signing players just now is like signing a player mid April a normal year.

Except we don't have any games as income.

[Parttimesupporter]

9 hours ago, baw heid said:

In my view the important point is not a timing issue, it is an ability to issue contracts when the manager is on furlough.  It is clear that EK, Kelty Annan and even Stranraer have someone in employ as new contracts are being processed or they are in breach of the furlough law and could be subject to a hefty HMRC fine. Wonder if our Board members are on furlough as well, if not we might get players contracted by the Board and not the manager. Could be worth a try? 

Our Board members don’t get paid so furlough isn’t an issue for them!

[baw heid]

3 hours ago, Parttimesupporter said:

Our Board members don’t get paid so furlough isn’t an issue for them!

I understand this. My point is that the timing of contracts being offered is not a choice of timing but a lifting of furlough for the person charged with building the team  Other clubs are cashing in and must have taken someone off furlough.  At the moment the only signings we could make  have to be made by the board without any input from the manager. HMRC are already clawing back furlough money where they can show employees on furlough have worked from home. If our manager is tasked with building a team he can not be seen to be doing anything until he returns from furlough, That's when signings will take place.

I would not be surprised if the clubs offering part time are also offering a job made available by a benefactor that is flexible in times to work to fit in with training and any recovery. 

[Parttimesupporter]

1 hour ago, baw heid said:

I understand this. My point is that the timing of contracts being offered is not a choice of timing but a lifting of furlough for the person charged with building the team  Other clubs are cashing in and must have taken someone off furlough.  At the moment the only signings we could make  have to be made by the board without any input from the manager. HMRC are already clawing back furlough money where they can show employees on furlough have worked from home. If our manager is tasked with building a team he can not be seen to be doing anything until he returns from furlough, That's when signings will take place.

I would not be surprised if the clubs offering part time are also offering a job made available by a benefactor that is flexible in times to work to fit in with training and any recovery. 

I suggested earlier in the thread that a manager can do some informal prep on who is available without too much risk, but agree that it would be rash to discuss terms with a player never mind make an offer.   The answer may be the manager working part-time in the first instance and stepping up hours gradually.  Pretty sure other clubs in the Championship have gone down this road.

Your last point is interesting.  Sponsorship where the cost to the sponsor is paying an employee rather than a direct payment to the Club.   Sure that is allowed as long as the documentation of the arrangements is clear (SD will know the rules).

[SueSue]

18 hours ago, Brother Grimm said:

As Skyline Drifter pointed out on another thread via some Ayr fan, signing players just now is like signing a player mid April a normal year.

Except we don't have any games as income.

That is absolutely correct but this is not a normal year. So you have to act accordingly. 
 

you would also agree contracts to start when preseason begins.

[19QOS19]

 

 

 

you would also agree contracts to start when preseason begins.

 

That only strengthens my argument that getting in early won't make any difference. If the player gets offered a deal by us and isn't going to get paid until the end of August/September then they'll definitely hang off to see if another offer comes in.

 

[Brother Grimm]

41 minutes ago, SueSue said:

That is absolutely correct but this is not a normal year. So you have to act accordingly. 
 

you would also agree contracts to start when preseason begins.

Would agree that contracts probably won't start until September sometime, but I'd imagine most signed on at say Dunfermline are getting paid just now.

[SueSue]

16 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

 

 

 

 

That only strengthens my argument that getting in early won't make any difference. If the player gets offered a deal by us and isn't going to get paid until the end of August/September then they'll definitely hang off to see if another offer comes in.

 

You seem to be understating the point that IMO the clubs are more in control now than ever before. Clubs are giving out less money in wages and in general running with smaller squads. Gary Holt said exactly this.

Which means that players are far more likely to take the security of an early offer of a deal than ever before.

 

 

[SueSue]

8 minutes ago, Brother Grimm said:

Would agree that contracts probably won't start until September sometime, but I'd imagine most signed on at say Dunfermline are getting paid just now.

I agree. The clubs with money will sign their targets now and pay them from the day they sign.