The Queen of the South thread

[19QOS19]

Really? That was a good team but they finished fourth in the championship, the biggest alignment in stars came from the relatively easy cup run you had to get to the semi final, not from the amazing team you had imo. No reason why that doesn't happen again in the future, the team that got promoted from league one and then done incredibly well in the championship with some big teams were so close to getting to the semi's. And that came just after Gus McPherson... 
 
You never know what's around the corner when you support a club of our size, you next manager could incredible. 

It was arguably the best group of players we ever had and I'd say it was our best chance of reaching the top flight. Some of the football was excellent at times. Ask about the manager at the time and if we'd have him back. The vast majority of QoS fans were glad when he departed for Dundee. That in itself speaks volumes.

[Skyline Drifter]

3 hours ago, Grant228 said:

Really? That was a good team but they finished fourth in the championship, the biggest alignment in stars came from the relatively easy cup run you had to get to the semi final, not from the amazing team you had imo. No reason why that doesn't happen again in the future, the team that got promoted from league one and then done incredibly well in the championship with some big teams were so close to getting to the semi's. And that came just after Gus McPherson... 

 

You never know what's around the corner when you support a club of our size, you next manager could incredible. 

We were unfortunate in that that team was terrific for about 10 months but it didn't correspond to a complete football season.

From about January to October 2008 that team was as good as any at this level. It only lost 3 league games in the 2nd half of that 07/08 league season, one of which was the last game of season when we were hammered 4-0 at East End Park fielding a virtual reserve side to save the first team for the Cup Final. The other two defeats being midweek away games at St Johnstone and Livingston (Griffiths scored). We finished 4th because we were sitting 9th when we went to Peterhead in the 3rd round of the Cup. After that Chisholm stopped trying to shoehorn Scally and Macfarlane into the same midfield and Ryan McCann arrived to strengthen the defence in place of the superbly talented but defensively weaker Eric Paton. Tosh started running the show and Dobbie & O'Connor really began to click as a partnership. Bob Harris cemented himself at full back ahead of McQuilken too.

By the following season we had lost Jamie MacDonald and Ryan McCann whilst Chisholm had never been a great fan of Andy Aitken and replaced him with Craig Barr / Craig Reid / Craig Sives / and eventually Martyn Lancaster.  But we still topped the table up to the end of October. By then though Sean O'Connor had been lost to an effectively career ending knee injury (he came back briefly but was never the same player) and so had Jamie Adams who was by then a driving force in our midfield. We got 1 point from the next 8 games and tumbled down the table.. The ship was eventually steadied and the back end of the season with an inspired Dobbie on fire as he earned his move to Swansea, saw us again beating pretty much everyone (other than Dunfermline who came to Palmerston and won 3-0 in our last home game). We ended up only 4th again though.

With Dobbie and O'Connor gone, JT retired, Macfarlane away and Tosh broke his leg early the following season that was us. By then budgets were becoming an issue and we couldn't replace them with anywhere near the same quality.

The best team we've had since was the one Jim McIntyre built off the back of Allan Johnston's first spell which James Fowler ultimately took to within a goal of Rangers in a two legged playoff. That team finished 4th in the Championship too but in a season where the top three was Hearts, Hibs and Rangers! We were unfortunate to have our best chance again when those sides were about. I don't think it was quite as good as the Cup Final 11 though personally. Zander Clark is the best keeper we've had between MacDonald and McCrorie. I'd shade it to MacDonald though probably between the two of them. Holt v Harris at left back is a coin flip too. Chris Mitchell & Ryan McGuffie were both better right backs than Ryan McStay or Eric Paton. The Aitken & Thomson partnership might have been better than whatever combination of Higgins, Dowie and Durnan you want to mention. That's a tight call. The Cup Final side was better in the front six though. Tosh and Macfarlane were better than McShane and Kerr / Millar. Dobbie and O'Connor better than Lyle and Reilly. Carmichael at his best v Burns is a tighter call. I'd probably take Burns for his consistency and better defending though. Iain Russell was certainly a more attacking left wing than Jamie McQuilken but they were very different players.

2 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

It was arguably the best group of players we ever had and I'd say it was our best chance of reaching the top flight. Some of the football was excellent at times. Ask about the manager at the time and if we'd have him back. The vast majority of QoS fans were glad when he departed for Dundee. That in itself speaks volumes.

The vast majority of Queens fans idolise John Connolly though despite a scatter gun approach to player recruitment that relied more on luck then any genuine perception and whose approach completely failed at St Johnstone by the time transfer windows arrived. They also revile the man who built the team that took us closest to the Premier League in McIntyre.

Chisholm got things wrong. The persistence with playing Scally and Macfarlane together for too long cost us and the jettisoning of Andy Aitken for a succession of players who weren't any better and certainly never had the same partnership with JT that Aitken did were two very obvious issues. That and leaving Dobbie out for both European ties which was pretty indefensible to be fair. But he got more right than wrong and it's wrong to dismiss the side he put together as one that just got lucky in a few cup draws (I know you didn't but Grant did above).

Edited April 20, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[qos1990]

The vast majority of Queens fans idolise John Connolly though despite a scatter gun approach to player recruitment that relied more on luck then any genuine perception and whose approach completely failed at St Johnstone by the time transfer windows arrived. They also revile the man who built the team that took us closest to the Premier League in McIntyre.
Chisholm got things wrong. The persistence with playing Scally and Macfarlane together for too long cost us and the jettisoning of Andy Aitken for a succession of players who weren't any better and certainly never had the same partnership with JT that Aitken did were two very obvious issues. That and leaving Dobbie out for both European ties which was pretty indefensible to be fair. But he got more right than wrong and it's wrong to dismiss the side he put together as one that just got lucky in a few cup draws (I know you didn't but Grant did above).

Personally I’d probably rate McIntyre best gaffer we’ve had over this period. He had a bit of an arrogance about him but it was a good amount then didn’t have this scattergun approach he did at more recent clubs, if I remember correctly he only brought Antell (Johnston had the deal started im told), zander Clark, Dowie and Kev the yank. Second season albeit he only just start it was only John Baird...all prob decent enough signing bar antell. Kev the yank never done much but from games in pre season we had to sign him, was actually disappointed he didn’t make the grade

[qos1990]

Personally I’d probably rate McIntyre best gaffer we’ve had over this period. He had a bit of an arrogance about him but it was a good amount then didn’t have this scattergun approach he did at more recent clubs, if I remember correctly he only brought Antell (Johnston had the deal started im told), zander Clark, Dowie and Kev the yank. Second season albeit he only just start it was only John Baird...all prob decent enough signing bar antell. Kev the yank never done much but from games in pre season we had to sign him, was actually disappointed he didn’t make the grade

He signed Fowler too

[HoBNob]

46 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

We were unfortunate in that that team was terrific for about 10 months but it didn't correspond to a complete football season.

From about January to October 2008 that team was as good as any at this level. It only lost 3 league games in the 2nd half of that 07/08 league season, one of which was the last game of season when we were hammered 4-0 at East End Park fielding a virtual reserve side to save the first team for the Cup Final. The other two defeats being midweek away games at St Johnstone and Livingston (Griffiths scored). We finished 4th because we were sitting 9th when we went to Peterhead in the 3rd round of the Cup. After that Chisholm stopped trying to shoehorn Scally and Macfarlane into the same midfield and Ryan McCann arrived to strengthen the defence in place of the superbly talented but defensively weaker Eric Paton. Tosh started running the show and Dobbie & O'Connor really began to click as a partnership. Bob Harris cemented himself at full back ahead of McQuilken too.

By the following season we had lost Jamie MacDonald and Ryan McCann whilst Chisholm had never been a great fan of Andy Aitken and replaced him with Craig Barr / Craig Reid / Craig Sives / and eventually Martyn Lancaster.  But we still topped the table up to the end of October. By then though Sean O'Connor had been lost to an effectively career ending knee injury (he came back briefly but was never the same player) and so had Jamie Adams who was by then a driving force in our midfield. We got 1 point from the next 8 games and tumbled down the table.. The ship was eventually steadied and the back end of the season with an inspired Dobbie on fire as he earned his move to Swansea, saw us again beating pretty much everyone (other than Dunfermline who came to Palmerston and won 3-0 in our last home game). We ended up only 4th again though.

With Dobbie and O'Connor gone, JT retired, Macfarlane away and Tosh broke his leg early the following season that was us. By then budgets were becoming an issue and we couldn't replace them with anywhere near the same quality.

The best team we've had since was the one Jim McIntyre built off the back of Allan Johnston's first spell which James Fowler ultimately took to within a goal of Rangers in a two legged playoff. That team finished 4th in the Championship too but in a season where the top three was Hearts, Hibs and Rangers! We were unfortunate to have our best chance again when those sides were about. I don't think it was quite as good as the Cup Final 11 though personally. Zander Clark is the best keeper we've had between MacDonald and McCrorie. I'd shade it to MacDonald though probably between the two of them. Holt v Harris at left back is a coin flip too. Chris Mitchell & Ryan McGuffie were both better right backs than Ryan McStay or Eric Paton. The Aitken & Thomson partnership might have been better than whatever combination of Higgins, Dowie and Durnan you want to mention. That's a tight call. The Cup Final side was better in the front six though. Tosh and Macfarlane were better than McShane and Kerr / Millar. Dobbie and O'Connor better than Lyle and Reilly. Carmichael at his best v Burns is a tighter call. I'd probably take Burns for his consistency and better defending though. Iain Russell was certainly a more attacking left wing than Jamie McQuilken but they were very different players.

The vast majority of Queens fans idolise John Connolly though despite a scatter gun approach to player recruitment that relied more on luck then any genuine perception and whose approach completely failed at St Johnstone by the time transfer windows arrived. They also revile the man who built the team that took us closest to the Premier League in McIntyre.

Chisholm got things wrong. The persistence with playing Scally and Macfarlane together for too long cost us and the jettisoning of Andy Aitken for a succession of players who weren't any better and certainly never had the same partnership with JT that Aitken did were two very obvious issues. That and leaving Dobbie out for both European ties which was pretty indefensible to be fair. But he got more right than wrong and it's wrong to dismiss the side he put together as one that just got lucky in a few cup draws (I know you didn't but Grant did above).

I'm not saying the side just got lucky in a few cup draws, but one of the biggest reasons you got to that stage in the Scottish Cup was the draw that got you there, no matter what what you spin it that side did finish fourth in what was a very weak first division. 

 

Fwiw that virtual reserve side was stupid, the cup final wasn't for another 4 weeks, you still played some key players in Thomson, Burns, Tosh, Dobbie and O'connor but then didn't play others, made absolutely no sense. 

[Guest Flash]

2 minutes ago, Grant228 said:

I'm not saying the side just got lucky in a few cup draws, but one of the biggest reasons you got to that stage in the Scottish Cup was the draw that got you there, no matter what what you spin it that side did finish fourth in what was a very weak first division. 

 

Fwiw that virtual reserve side was stupid, the cup final wasn't for another 4 weeks, you still played some key players in Thomson, Burns, Tosh, Dobbie and O'connor but then didn't play others, made absolutely no sense. 

Remember this is Chisholm we’re talking about.

[Skyline Drifter]

29 minutes ago, qos1990 said:

He signed Fowler too

 

And Mark Kerr.

[palmy_cammy]

We're covering old ground, but I suppose with no new things to talk about it's worthwhile.  Chisholm will forever go down in the history books as the man who led us to our first Scottish Cup Final, but it is league form that a manager should primarily be assessed.  For me -

Chisholm underachieved with the tools at his disposal.  He got the best out of a team largely assembled by Ian McCall but failed spectacularly at building his own team even with Davie Rae's chequebook.  This approach ultimately led to us being relegated when we had to cut our cloth after years of crazy spending.

Jim McIntyre had us punching our weight, no more, no less.

James Fowler overachieved.  Fourth is the highest we have finished in my time following the club and doing so in 2014/15 is the best achievement of them all given the strength of the league.  Getting rid of him was a mistake that started a downward spiral we haven't recovered from.

[qos1990]

And Mark Kerr.

I’d erased that w****r from my memory

[19QOS19]

I’d erased that w****r from my memory

Meh, like him or not he was an excellent CM for us. And if the story about his departure is true, he wasn't the problem.

[D'Jaffo]

Meh, like him or not he was an excellent CM for us. And if the story about his departure is true, he wasn't the problem.

Out of interest what was the story?

[19QOS19]

Just now, D'Jaffo said:

Out of interest what was the story?

The guy told me that someone who had no involvement with the team was running their mouth about a performance and Kerr basically told them where to go. 

I obviously don't know if this was the case and Kerr has a sketchy past. But the person involved from the club's side also appears to rile folk so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was true. 

Regardless, I wasn't as furious with Kerr at that time and never gave him subsequent pelters. I was much more enraged by John Baird spitting the dummy. 

[QOSQOS]

OK , I taped the game and watched it this afternoon, beats gardening. Epic.

Like others, I was nervous the last half hour, on the day I was a ‘bag of nerves’ after it went 4-3 and so tense as we edged closer ( and survived all Aberdeen could throw at us).

Best ever Queens game.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, palmy_cammy said:

We're covering old ground, but I suppose with no new things to talk about it's worthwhile.  Chisholm will forever go down in the history books as the man who led us to our first Scottish Cup Final, but it is league form that a manager should primarily be assessed.  For me -

Chisholm underachieved with the tools at his disposal.  He got the best out of a team largely assembled by Ian McCall but failed spectacularly at building his own team even with Davie Rae's chequebook.  This approach ultimately led to us being relegated when we had to cut our cloth after years of crazy spending.

Jim McIntyre had us punching our weight, no more, no less.

James Fowler overachieved.  Fourth is the highest we have finished in my time following the club and doing so in 2014/15 is the best achievement of them all given the strength of the league.  Getting rid of him was a mistake that started a downward spiral we haven't recovered from.

I think thats too simplistic but also has a fair bit of truth in it in places.

Chisholm might have underachieved a bit. But he did improve us significantly from the McCall era. Its fair to say he did so without massive tinkering initially. The Cup Final team had only three Chisholm (new) signings starting in Harris, McCann and Macfarlane. Team didnt need much surgery and what he did improved it undeniably. But as I said earlier he faffed around for half a season trying to play a combination that wasnt working in midfield. 

I think it is fair to say his attempts to rebuild after the Cup Final generally failed though. Kean was an expensive bust. So was Halliwell. And he went through several players trying to replace Aitken and McCann (the former didnt really need replacing). He wasnt helped by injury finishing Tosh, Adams, O'Connor AND Gary Arbuckle though. Four effective career ending injuries in one season is horrendous luck in anyone's book.

I think to say McIntyre only had us punching our weight is harsh too. It took him a while to settle in and change the team a little but once he got them settled and playing how he wanted he had 6 really good months before he was head hunted. Fowler did very well for a novice hand on the tiller but make no mistake, he managed McIntyre's team. It's not really consistent to dismiss Chisholm as only doing well with McCall's team (which he made at least 3 changes to) and then give Fowler all the credit for doing well with McIntyre's when he pretty much made only one change to it, and that largely enforced.

McIntyre was responsible for bringing McShane back, Dowie in and playing Russell wude, all things fans roundly castigated him for. All things he was ultimately absolutely right about. He did well for a year or two at County too even if he ultimately was binned and his period at Dundee was an unmitigated disaster.

For what its worth I also agree getting rid of Fowler when we did was harsh. I thought he deserved another year. We will never know if it was actually a mistake as he hasnt managed since. He did a good job as Jack Ross' assistant but there is no evidence to fall back on about whether or not it was a mistake.

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

1 hour ago, qos1990 said:

I’d erased that w****r from my memory

Meh, like him or not he was an excellent CM for us. And if the story about his departure is true, he wasn't the problem.

He was a terrific footballer for about a year.

1 hour ago, D'Jaffo said:

Out of interest what was the story?

Kerr was very much a McIntyre signing, along with John Baird. The two of them became a dressing room problem after McIntyre went to County. Baird in particular was frustrated at a lack of starts despite Reilly and Lyle scoring freely while starting. He wasnt patient to wait for his chance whilst Kerr who had been out injured fir a month or two clearly had an issue with Fowler who he considered a peer, not a boss.

It culminated in a set too in the away dressing room at Alloa between Kerr and Jim Thomson who was by then acting as Fowler's interim assistant before he could get Skelton in. Kerr was then released within a week or two, departing with a verbal volley at Thomson who he dismissed as a "person who was not involved in the dressing room when I arrived and ended up sticking his nose in it" or words to that effect. Cant recall the actual quote. Baird followed him out the door within a couple of weeks with both signing for Falkirk.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[D'Jaffo]

Kerr was very much a McIntyre signing, along with John Baird. The two of them became a dressing room problem after McIntyre went to County. Baird in particular was frustrated at a lack of starts despite Reilly and Lyle scoring freely while starting. He wasnt patient to wait for his chance whilst Kerr who had been out injured fir a month or two clearly had an issue with Fowler who he considered a peer, not a boss.
It culminated in a set too in the away dressing room at Alloa between Kerr and Jim Thomson who was by then acting as Fowler's interim assistant before he could get Skelton in. Kerr was then released within a week or two, departing with a verbal volley at Thomson who he dismissed as a "person who was not involved in the dressing room when I arrived and ended up sticking his nose in it" or words to that effect. Cant recall the actual quote. Baird followed him out the door within a couple of weeks with both signing for Falkirk.

The guy told me that someone who had no involvement with the team was running their mouth about a performance and Kerr basically told them where to go. 
I obviously don't know if this was the case and Kerr has a sketchy past. But the person involved from the club's side also appears to rile folk so I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was true. 
Regardless, I wasn't as furious with Kerr at that time and never gave him subsequent pelters. I was much more enraged by John Baird spitting the dummy. 

Would certainly match up with his departure from Falkirk the second time when he didn’t get on with Hartley when he took over.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 hours ago, qos1990 said:

f I remember correctly he only brought Antell (Johnston had the deal started im told), zander Clark, Dowie and Kev the yank. 

 

No, Antell was 100% a McIntyre signing. He got that wrong but in his defence had been left with little option and did at least fix the problem quickly by bringing Clark in. Johnston had hung on waiting for Lee Robinson to make his mind up and, when he decided to go to Sweden, had Grant Adam in on trial. McIntyre didnt fancy Adam and went looking elsewhere. To be fair, whilst Antell clearly didnt work, he had been good at East Fife the year before.

2 hours ago, Grant228 said:

Fwiw that virtual reserve side was stupid, the cup final wasn't for another 4 weeks, you still played some key players in Thomson, Burns, Tosh, Dobbie and O'connor but then didn't play others, made absolutely no sense. 

I would need to look at the side but from what I recall only one player played 90 mins in his cup final position. Most of them did 45 mins to keep some activity in the legs. McQuilken played left back but had been converted to a left midfielder in the starting team etc.

[19QOS19]

Would certainly match up with his departure from Falkirk the second time when he didn’t get on with Hartley when he took over.

FWIW, it wasn't JT I was talking about.

[Skyline Drifter]

52 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

1 hour ago, D said:

Would certainly match up with his departure from Falkirk the second time when he didn’t get on with Hartley when he took over.

FWIW, it wasn't JT I was talking about.

I know who you think it was. You are wrong though, it was definitely JT Kerr was referring to. A lot of people misunderstood what he said and jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[HoBNob]

24 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

I would need to look at the side but from what I recall only one player played 90 mins in his cup final position. Most of them did 45 mins to keep some activity in the legs. McQuilken played left back but had been converted to a left midfielder in the starting team etc.

Not a single player was subbed at half time. 

Thomson, McQuilken, Burns, Tosh, O'connor and Dobbie all started, all a bit bizarre, the final was weeks away I'm not sure it done any of the other players any good to give them another weeks rest on top of that, Chisholm would later mention the gap in games as being a bad thing, which is fair, giving players extra rest on top of that didn't help prove his point though. 

 

Looking back at the lineups I presumed O'Neil was some youth, turns out he'd played allot in Scottish football. 

[SEETHING]

Was at that Aberdeen semi (and the final) - one of my favourite ever football matches. That 11 minute spell was insane. 

Saw a lot of Queens around that time - was convinced that Bob Harris was going on to great things.