The Queen of the South thread

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Fae_the_'briggs said:

Not really relevant to the game yesterday,   or of any great importance,  but I was wondering why the first three sections of the East Stand have been cordoned off and the home fans are stuck in two central sections.  

To save on stewarding costs. It will be the same on Tuesday, and probably for any home Challenge Cup ties against lower division sides. It will be fully open for the League games though and any bigger cup ties.

[19QOS19]

Overheard a steward telling a punter it was the safety officer's call and that that's what is to be done with lower crowds. Thought his explanation was a bit strange.

[weeredbook]

47 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

To save on stewarding costs. It will be the same on Tuesday, and probably for any home Challenge Cup ties against lower division sides. It will be fully open for the League games though and any bigger cup ties.

Very sensible.

[palmy_cammy]

7 hours ago, Flash said:

It isn’t shipping 3 goals to Stranraer that is the issue. It is because this is a repeat of the kind of thing we saw last season. Of course, it is hardly surprising that it happened given that Leighfield, Mercer, Marshall and Fordyce were playing and they were all there last season and playing together in the period we were shipping goals for fun. 

It remains to be seen whether Semple coming in will make a difference. It might be similar to when Kerr was playing in that it will improve matters slightly. It will also allow Doyle to move to right back, so that should be an additional improvement, but we will still have Fordyce at CB. Then in January, we will have another of the culprits back.

What we really needed was an entirely new back 4 and either a fit Martin or a new goalkeeper as well. Of course, that was never going to happen. In my view, if the whole team was at the same level as Leighfield, Mercer, Marshall, Brownlie and Fordyce we would go straight down. And might not even stop when we got to League 1.

I think suggesting replacing the entire defence is a bit over the top.  Aside from my previous thoughts on Leighfield, I don't think we could expect to get much better at this level than Brownlie,  Fordyce, Mercer and Marshall.  Doyle you would expect to be of a similar standard having played at this level the majority of his career.  Semple is a complete unknown.

As Livi proved last season (I have a feeling I am going to be overusing that phrase this season) success can come, not from the individual names in the team, but by producing a mindset and system where the team is better than the sum of it's parts.  This is where the manager comes in, because this isn't a computer game or the top level where who signs the best players wins, it is about eking out this small margins.

We lose too many goals from cross balls, 19QOS19 may have mentioned it once or twice.  It's simplistic to blame that on a goalkeeper not having enough command of his box, or the defenders being rubbish at marking or making headed clearances.  Whilst those things may all be true, if we were an organised unit as a team then our opponents would have less crosses into the box and these weaknesses wouldn't be so critical.

We looked disjointed a lot of last season with too many players not sticking to their job.  This wasn't helped by a captain who was one of the main offenders in the "headless chicken" category.  Who, out of interest, is going to be captain this season?  In Rankin's absence last season I'm sure it was Dobbie and then Fordyce?  I'm not convinced either of them are the organiser or leader that we need, but I'm not sure who else would be suitable.  Harkins perhaps?

[Dumfries Boy(new acc)]

23 minutes ago, palmy_cammy said:

I'm not convinced either of them are the organiser or leader that we need, but I'm not sure who else would be suitable.  Harkins perhaps?

Biggest organiser on the pitch on Saturday was Owen Bell, the young lad wasn't afraid to be heard. Wouldn't be against him getting more game time, liked the look of him and Harkins together. Think Dobbie will be captain fwiw. After Fordyces performance I wouldn't even start him on Tuesday nevermind give him the captaincy.

[Guest Flash]

28 minutes ago, palmy_cammy said:

I think suggesting replacing the entire defence is a bit over the top.  Aside from my previous thoughts on Leighfield, I don't think we could expect to get much better at this level than Brownlie,  Fordyce, Mercer and Marshall.  Doyle you would expect to be of a similar standard having played at this level the majority of his career.  Semple is a complete unknown.

As Livi proved last season (I have a feeling I am going to be overusing that phrase this season) success can come, not from the individual names in the team, but by producing a mindset and system where the team is better than the sum of it's parts.  This is where the manager comes in, because this isn't a computer game or the top level where who signs the best players wins, it is about eking out this small margins.

We lose too many goals from cross balls, 19QOS19 may have mentioned it once or twice.  It's simplistic to blame that on a goalkeeper not having enough command of his box, or the defenders being rubbish at marking or making headed clearances.  Whilst those things may all be true, if we were an organised unit as a team then our opponents would have less crosses into the box and these weaknesses wouldn't be so critical.

We looked disjointed a lot of last season with too many players not sticking to their job.  This wasn't helped by a captain who was one of the main offenders in the "headless chicken" category.  Who, out of interest, is going to be captain this season?  In Rankin's absence last season I'm sure it was Dobbie and then Fordyce?  I'm not convinced either of them are the organiser or leader that we need, but I'm not sure who else would be suitable.  Harkins perhaps?

Don’t disagree that being better organised would produce better defending. Not sure whether that is 100% the manager’s failure or whether we just have to accept that the players we have are incapable of carrying out the level of defending required and therefore just aren’t good enough. 

I don’t really pay much attention to the names playing for opposition teams, but often their defenders just look better than ours. If I saw our current goalkeeper and defenders lining up against us, I’d be delighted. Would Hopkin have been able to orgainise Mercer, Fordyce, Brownlie and Marshall into a defence that was difficult to score against? Really not sure. You could be right, though, that he could and the poor defending is entirely Naysmith’s fault. Probably because the same things happen time and again, I have concluded that the players aren’t good enough for this level. The fact that Marshall, one if the least bad of the defenders, couldn’t get another club is perhaps telling. That may have been down to his personal situation, of course. I’m just not sure what teams at our level would want Leighfield, Mercer, Fordyce and Brownlie if they became available.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, palmy_cammy said:

Who, out of interest, is going to be captain this season?  In Rankin's absence last season I'm sure it was Dobbie and then Fordyce?  I'm not convinced either of them are the organiser or leader that we need, but I'm not sure who else would be suitable.  Harkins perhaps?

Dobbie is now club captain. Fordyce is the vice captain.

Fordyce was club captain at Dunfermline when they won League One.

[19QOS19]

 

 

 

We lose too many goals from cross balls, 19QOS19 may have mentioned it once or twice. 

 

 

Yip and expect me to continue as I left off. That's one for one already this season. It wouldn't be such a big deal if it was every so often, every side loses goals from set-pieces/crosses. But given we'd have been sitting comfortably in the play-offs if we'd dealt with them last season (possibly 3rd I think, I can't recall precisely now) I think it goes beyond a petty grievance. It's a serious issue and arguably our biggest issue. I can't think of any other area of our play that is a bigger cause for concern.

 

Stranraer had loads of crosses in the first half on Saturday and giving the defence some credit they only conceded one as result. A big problem was the fact they were getting in so many crosses in the first place. The right hand side was an absolute shambles. The long haired boy had free reign against Mercer and Bell* because neither looked like they knew how to defend and the left side wasn't that much better but I put the majority of the blame on Stirling. Too many times he was jogging back. Todd wasn't much better at getting back quickly either. The midfield beed to be doing better at preventing the crosses coming in as well. But they all need to sharpen up quickly because a better attacking side would have killed us off by half-time on Saturday.

 

* Not a dig at the boy. I don't think it's his favoured position. I like Bell and hope he gets more games this season, I'm not sure out wide is going to go too well for him though.

 

 

[queenslad]

I didn't think Bell contributed very much when out wide on Saturday much same as Murray or Dykes in that position. He was totally different players when he moved into the middle of midfield, wanting and getting the ball and linking well with the defenders playing the ball out

 

[Sloop John B]

I haven't had the chance to watch Saturday's game yet so can't comment on that but it's not just a personnel thing that causes it's a variety of things.

Goalkeeper - Either Alan Martin is rooted to where he is because he can't physically move or Leighfield is too short to come for a cross. The inconsistency probably doesn't help as i'd imagine they'd rather have Martin as they'll naturally have more faith in him as first choice compared to Leighfield.

Defence - How often does the defence end up camped in their box late on  and don't push up? I don't know if it's  a fitness thing (Likely seeing as they are low level full time players in a small squad), or just laziness but you have to play with some intensity to do your job which is probably more annoying. Also just basic marking at times is deeply frustrating, Darren Brownlie has played a lot of football at a young age so frankly he should be able to communicate better rather than being the common denominator in the decline of a solid defence over the last 3 years. but you can say the same of almost all of the defence. Fortunately Shaun Rooney is gone so we'll concede a million less fouls from hands on back now, (Thank god the SPFL is too skint for VAR).

Crosses coming in, firstly playing strikers out wide and expecting them to track back is asking for trouble,  almost all of Dyke's bad performances came when he was on the wing, but as has been mentioned Stirling doesn't like to do it, neither did Dom Thomas. The only one i thought that did a good job of it was Murray but he is pretty limited at the whole going forwards thing. Mercer isn't particularly mobile or great going forward though so when he had bad days, it was a bloody mess. When you added in John Rankin being so far behind the play that he was in a Dundee United shirt there wasn't much protection for the full backs. 

Size matters - As mentioned Leighfield is rather  short for a keeper, Marshall, and Mercer aren't big,  Brownlie and Fordyce aren't huge centre halves, there wasn't a particularly strong dominant midfielder either. As mental as it sounds, big people tend to be better in the air (Not a guarantee see, Cameron, Kyle). 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Sloop John B

[HoBNob]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Dobbie is now club captain. Fordyce is the vice captain.

Fordyce was club captain at Dunfermline when they won League One.

While that's true, he did miss the vast majority of that season after an horrific injury. I've heard he's a great bloke off the pitch but it's hard to judge how much of an organiser he was while he was captain, the portion of the season he played was at the start when,  the pitches were beautiful and we were giving out skelpings every week. The defence was rarely troubled. 

 

[weeredbook]

2 hours ago, Dumfries Boy(new acc) said:

Biggest organiser on the pitch on Saturday was Owen Bell, the young lad wasn't afraid to be heard. Wouldn't be against him getting more game time, liked the look of him and Harkins together. Think Dobbie will be captain fwiw. After Fordyces performance I wouldn't even start him on Tuesday nevermind give him the captaincy.

He also touched the ball once in the first 30 minutes .

[Skyline Drifter]

51 minutes ago, Sloop John B said:

Size matters - As mentioned Leighfield is rather  short for a keeper,

Seriously not sure you are looking at the right player. I'm 6ft tall. Jack Leighfield is taller than me. I would also have said he was taller than Alan Martin for that matter although he maybe just gives that impression by being much less stocky. Jim Atkinson and Lee Robinson were quite short for keepers. Jack Leighfield isnt.

[jakeyman]

Good grief you would think we had lost on Saturday. I was standing in front off a guy on Saturday  and I’m certain we could have been 6 0 up against Real Mardrid at half time in the champions league final and he would still have moaned.

[palmy_cammy]

9 hours ago, Flash said:

Don’t disagree that being better organised would produce better defending. Not sure whether that is 100% the manager’s failure or whether we just have to accept that the players we have are incapable of carrying out the level of defending required and therefore just aren’t good enough. 

I don’t really pay much attention to the names playing for opposition teams, but often their defenders just look better than ours. If I saw our current goalkeeper and defenders lining up against us, I’d be delighted. Would Hopkin have been able to orgainise Mercer, Fordyce, Brownlie and Marshall into a defence that was difficult to score against? Really not sure. You could be right, though, that he could and the poor defending is entirely Naysmith’s fault. Probably because the same things happen time and again, I have concluded that the players aren’t good enough for this level. The fact that Marshall, one if the least bad of the defenders, couldn’t get another club is perhaps telling. That may have been down to his personal situation, of course. I’m just not sure what teams at our level would want Leighfield, Mercer, Fordyce and Brownlie if they became available.

As the smallest full-time team in the country, that's just the level we are operating at when it comes to signings though isn't it?  We have to take a punt on players like Dowie, Higgins and Fordyce who for whatever reason the bigger clubs consider them a risk (age, injury record).  Lower league players stepping up from part-time football (Martin, Mercer, Brownlie).  Youngsters from the league above who either haven't made the grade - Durnan, or their club want them to gain experience on loan - Kerr.

At least Naysmith is going down a different route used by most of our managers by trying the English market with Cameron and Semple.

Like you I'm never that clued up about opposition players as I'm only interested in reading about Queens on here, and during games I am always analysing things from our point of view and not what the opposition has done.  We had one of the highest goals against column last season so you could argue that proves we have some of the worst defenders in the league.  We were also one of the highest scorers.  That might suggest that it was the balance of the team that was wrong, not that we have crap defenders.  Or it could just mean we have crap defenders + Dobbie.

A tactically sound manager and an organised system can make such a difference though.  That is why the likes of Sam Allardyce and Tony Pulis make fortunes down south rescuing teams from the shit every year, and why Diego Simeone has had Atletico Madrid punching well above their weight for years.

[baw heid]

Really like your post. We play with a back 4 and our wide 2 should be defenders and not Wing Backs. We really need to train forwards and the mid field the art of man marking. You do not need to be taller or as tall as the player being marked. I refer to the Hearts game where their big centre forward was marked out of the game by our trialist CB

Your reference to Allardyce and Pullis is a valid point but they are recruited to get teams away from the relegation area and they do that by playing with 2 or even 3 holding mid fielders. This style of play secures the teams position but the football is a bit boring and inevitably they are moved on. Roy Hodgson is a better example of management but he is blessed with a couple of players who can turn a game on their own.  My passion is watching a well drilled defence that can play the ball out. I think we may now have the skill set but the defence needs to work, not only in games, but also on the training ground. I like a high line with a keeper behind who can act as a sweeper if needed.

Most teams have problems scoring we don't so lets see what the defence looks like after working together as a unit and we get done with this cup group, I'm sure we can qualify 

[NM_1919]

Giving it was our first competitive game i wont be losing too much sleep, after seeing all the rest of the results. We got the job done at end of day and it's again quite clear what needs worked on.

 

From watching qostv90, i thought Mercers over reliance on not using Bell either lost us the ball or forced us back the way, Marsh was sloppy in possession and i thought on the wingers offered little, can Stirling cross a ball? In saying that from being 2-0 down its character to bring it back which is good. Thought Todd looked decent, giving he's not played a lot in pre season, looked busy and used ball well.

 

 

[Guest Flash]

50 minutes ago, palmy_cammy said:

As the smallest full-time team in the country, that's just the level we are operating at when it comes to signings though isn't it?  We have to take a punt on players like Dowie, Higgins and Fordyce who for whatever reason the bigger clubs consider them a risk (age, injury record).  Lower league players stepping up from part-time football (Martin, Mercer, Brownlie).  Youngsters from the league above who either haven't made the grade - Durnan, or their club want them to gain experience on loan - Kerr.

 

I appreciate the player market we are in. My post was mainly in reponse to yours saying that we shouldn’t expect to get better defenders at this level by pointing out that other teams at this level have better defenders than us. Whilst we have to ignore the season in the seaside league, I think Johnston put a better defence together than Naysmith. Mitchell, Higgins, Durnan and Holt was a far better defence than what we currently have. Fair enough, Higgins and Holt were already signed before he came in, but it shows it can be done on a small budget. 

I do agree, though, that we were far better organised then as well. We could play 4-4-2 without leaving the defence exposed (looking only at the cup games against the bigger sides). We even managed to attack Killie when we played 4-4-1 for almost the entire game, and only lost 2-1. 

I think what we have now is a combination of lower level defenders who aren’t going to get any better (Doyle and Semple excepted) plus midfielders who don’t always carry out their defensive duties, plus a manager who can’t get the best out of the limited players he has. Perhaps things will improve when Semple gets into the team and has a run of games. And when we have a fit Martin in goal, if that ever happens.

[Steeplechat]

Good grief you would think we had lost on Saturday. I was standing in front off a guy on Saturday  and I’m certain we could have been 6 0 up against Real Mardrid at half time in the champions league final and he would still have moaned.

Was it Northfield ?

[steakpiegravy]

Seriously not sure you are looking at the right player. I'm 6ft tall. Jack Leighfield is taller than me. I would also have said he was taller than Alan Martin for that matter although he maybe just gives that impression by being much less stocky. Jim Atkinson and Lee Robinson were quite short for keepers. Jack Leighfield isnt.

That’s interesting. He certainly looks short but maybe it’s a comparative thing. I thought Pickford looked short in the World Cup footage but he’s apparently 6’1””. I guess it’s all relative -Thibaut Courtois by comparison is 6’6”. Hugo Lloris 6’2”.

...and by the way I’m 5’11 3/4 and have serious doubts about SD being 6’[emoji16]