The Falkirk FC Thread

[Poet of the Macabre]

46 minutes ago, Duncan Freemason said:

Aw right, so Livingston and Dundee and Hearts should feel flattered aye?

lolwut

15 minutes ago, kiddy said:

Don't quite  think we're at the Zero P stage yet.

Of course not but good to see that people are willing to copy ideas and not let petty rivalries get in the way.

42 minutes ago, Bairney The Dinosaur said:

No chance those two are working together.

For the good of the club, I think they'll see sense.

[oot_the_loop]

I took some notes and will turn my scribbles into a semblance of minutes at some point, but chatting with my folks on way out there was some confusion around Return on Investment and share ownership - let see what others thought.  Please forgive my completely obvious lack of understanding of share investment groups.

For the average punter, a pledge has been requested to essentially pay £10 / month for 24 months and was described as a share save scheme.  My interpretation of what was being asked would not be a share save scheme as such as there is no return on investment ie I dont get £240 of shares at 33p each to do with as I please (sell when I want).  Essentially, I would invest in a CIC or similar and that entity would hold the shares on my behalf.  My investment would 'buy' me a say in the running of the CIC or similar.

The big question is, would I - as an individual and solely as an individual - personally own shares in Falkirk Football Club?  If I did, what guarantees are there I would need to participate in a  'block vote' as described?  And would those who already own shares also have to be part of the 'block vote'? And in such a 'block vote' decision being held, would those that invest more than £10/month have a bigger voting power then those who pay in £10 / month (ie 1 share = 1 vote), or would it be 1 person regardless of money invested = 1 vote (like in a union collective as the comparison was drawn).

Regardless of the detail (and I still have some reservation that will hopefully be cleared up in Phase 2 - governance of the CIC / new company being a major one), there is no better opportunity to dilute the current MSGs share in the club and that will only happen if the pledges are made now.  Major credit has to go the organisers of this to get the MSGs agreement to do so.  Well done to all involved.

 

 

[GMBairn]

1 hour ago, Bairney The Dinosaur said:

Right I’ll try do this off the top of my head. Anyone else that was there can fill in or correct me.

The main idea is to increase the number of shareholders so there is a larger major shareholders group and the club can’t be controlled by a select few. Currently 62% of the club is owned by 6 people.
The MSG and have seen the proposals and agreed in principle to dilute their shares. An additional 2.4m shares will be made available to do this. Fans can then fall under the bracket of ‘Patron’ or ‘Supporter’. Patrons will pledge roughly between 5k - 10k and will become a shareholder in their own right. Supporters will pledge monthly from £5 - £30 and will join the supporters scheme. It’s hoped the Patrons will combined own roughly 75% of the club with no individual owning more the 6.25% and the supporters scheme will own roughly 25%.

From now until April pledges are just being used to see if the support is there for this and if discussions should continue with the club then in April there will be a more detailed plan and that’s when you decide if you definitely want to join and sign up for direct debit.

The club is going to email out the proposals but I’d probably say if you are unsure speak to Kenny Jamieson cause he certainly managed to convince the 150 or so people in the room it was a good idea.

Another link to pledge page as I think this really is something we need to back. http://clubfk.wixsite.com/backthebairns

 

55 minutes ago, Back Post Misses said:

 

The key in the short term is actually the Patrons. If the 560k Kenny wants from that group can come in then the whole scheme will fly.

Probably need 25-35 of those people to get to that number.

 

Based on this we are talking about the club being 75% owned by some 40-odd individuals and 25% owned by the remaining fans group?  How would this functionally work in terms of voting, would the fans group then be represented by a couple of individuals chosen by them to vote on things like board members etc?

[EdiBairn]

4 minutes ago, GMBairn said:

 

How would this functionally work in terms of voting, would the fans group then be represented by a couple of individuals chosen by them to vote on things like board members etc?

This is the big issue for me. If the people paying £10 a month don't get to attend AGMs, vote on directors etc, then this isn't a share scheme at all really.

All they're effectively doing is joining a supporters group, from which a few blazer chasers will get to represent the fans' 'share' holding.

[GMBairn]

1 minute ago, EdiBairn said:

This is the big issue for me. If the people paying £10 a month don't get to attend AGMs, vote on directors etc, then this isn't a share scheme at all really.

All they're effectively doing is joining a supporters group, from which a few blazer chasers will get to represent the fans' 'share' holding.

I assume those individuals would need to be elected from among that scheme members?

[EdiBairn]

8 minutes ago, GMBairn said:

I assume those individuals would need to be elected from among that scheme members?

Presumably, but if the individuals paying the monthly sum have no rights to directly elect directors or attend AGMs, they're not shareholders in any sense of the word and this is not a share issue. 

People are effectively being asked to pay a monthly membership fee to this supporters' organisation which will exercise complete control over their 'shareholding' on their behalf. They won't have any say in the matter outside electing a supporters' Rep. 

Hasn't been thought through properly for me. People would never buy shares in any other business if they could only exercise control through a 'shareholders' representative' with no personal input.

Edited January 7, 2019 by EdiBairn

[knee jerk reaction]

3 minutes ago, EdiBairn said:

Presumably, but if the individuals paying the monthly sum have no rights to directly elect directors or attend AGMs, they're not shareholders in any sense of the word and this is not a share issue. 

People are effectively being asked to pay a monthly membership fee to this supporters' organisation which will exercise complete control over their 'shareholding' on their behalf. They won't have any say in the matter outside electing a supporters' Rep. 

Hasn't been thought through properly for me.

If you really were interested,  then you'd have been at the meeting and heard how things would work. Stop being a dick.

[EdiBairn]

4 minutes ago, knee jerk reaction said:

If you really were interested,  then you'd have been at the meeting and heard how things would work. Stop being a dick.

I would be very interested in contributing to a genuine fan ownership scheme. I'm not going to pay for the right to elect someone to speak on my behalf. That's not what a shareholding is in any sense of the word.

Edited January 7, 2019 by EdiBairn

[Andreas Kelevra]

What happens to existing shareholders? What class off shares do we have?

Are they going to offer existing shareholders the chance to become patrons or is it for existing Falkirk worthys and well Kent faces only.

[Bigbrbairn]

If 1 thousand of our 3 thousand ST holders pay a tenner a month that alone would give us £120000 a year. It would go a long way to giving us the money to extend O’Hara’s contract Edibairn

[oot_the_loop]

>20,000 existing shares = patrons

<20,000 existing shares = supporter

[EdiBairn]

2 minutes ago, Bigbrbairn said:

If 1 thousand of our 3 thousand ST holders pay a tenner a month that alone would give us £120000 a year. It would go a long way to giving us the money to extend O’Hara’s contract Edibairn

You actually make a good point. All this is is effectively a rebranded Bairn for Life scheme to increase the first team budget with a bit more fans' representation thrown in. It's not a share issue.

Edited January 7, 2019 by EdiBairn

[EdiBrain]

I firmly believe for 10 quid a month I should have a major say in the running of the club & it should not be left to some “elected” individual drunk with power to go crazy with my investment.

In fact once my tenner clears the bank the club should consult me on everything & I would start off by terminating the contract of O’Hara therefore instantly saving us from relegation.

#hero
#neverwrong

[oot_the_loop]

Supporter Investment Meeting – 7^th Jan 2019

Intro:  David (didn’t get Surname)

Some background given, the real groundswell for this movement was the recent AGM where the voice of the average shareholder was completely ignored as the MSG proxy voted all in the same direction and gained majority, regardless of what anyone else thought.  All agreed this needed to change.

David and Kenny have spoken to all major stakeholders including the MSG, local businesses including the consortium who had a proposal recently turned down and now the fans, as well as taking advice from other supporters groups from Hearts, St Mirren and Dunfermline.  Discussions have also taken place with the Bairn 4 Life group to ensure the two schemes do not operate in conflict with each other.

The proposal as it stands is currently a skeleton proposal in the conceptual stage, but importantly the MSG have agreed to it ‘in principle’.  The MSG (made up of 6 people) currently own 62% of the club, with 8 people owning around 74% of the club.

David passed meeting over to Kenny

Explained that the information tonight was largely the same as that at the AGM, so by that measure was pleased that most of the audience were not at the AGM (by show of hands).  Explained that late last year, a consortium put together a proposal for ownership of the club but this was turned down by the MSG and felt there must be some way to put forward a proposal to meet the needs of all key stakeholders. 

Explanation given that some of the key decisions recently at the very least put the club in financial stability, confident of achieving ‘break-even’ each year, rather than the year on year loss being plugged by player sales or cup runs.  Accepted some decisions were contentious and may not be the right one long term but purely financially, it created stability but left very little opportunity for new money to come in which has left us stagnant.

One of the key drivers behind the proposal put across was to be less reliant on a small number of major stakeholders, and to increase democracy, with a balance between big and small investors in the club.  Also wanted to put in safeguards that would protect against being reliant on one wealthy person being the major shareholder who may or may not choose to sell at any time, like certain other clubs have in the past.

As before, the proposal has been accepted ‘in principle’, but only if the necessary pledges are made by patrons (see below) and supporters.

The Proposal

There are currently 2.4m Falkirk FC shares, with the MSG owning 62% of these.  The proposal would see the total number of shares increase to 4.8m, with the MSGs agreeing to dilute their shareholdings to 31%.  The 2.4m shares would be available at 33p, and would therefore need around £800,000 to purchase.  Importantly, none of this £800,000 would be leaving the club and would be 100% retained for investment in the club, including potential supplementing of the playing budget.

The scheme would have two levels, with ‘A Level’ shares being made available to patrons for a minimum £5k / £10k (TBD) investment and a maximum of £100,000 per investor (6.25%). Current shareholders (including MSG) with >20,000 shares would also become patrons but the same limits would apply (only one current shareholder exceeds the limit with discussions ongoing with that individual to lower that to 6.25%).

‘B Level’ shares would go to supporters for £5 or £10 / month minimum (TBD) and would look to gain control of 25% of the total available shares. 

The anticipated split would be the ‘B group’ gaining at least 25% shares (1.2m) and the patrons having 75% (3.6m).  This number is important as Special Resolutions need >75% to be approved, and could effectively be blocked by the supporters, providing a block vote was made (see earlier post, this was the bit that I didnt quite fully understand the ins and outs of and needs further work in Phase 2).

The Governance still needs some amount of work, but as Kenny explained – they are reluctant to go into the full detail of this solely due to the work involved – prior to having a fairly firm understanding of the level of interest from supporters and patrons, hence the request for supports to make a pledge in principle to sign up to the £10/month offer.  Importantly, the pledge does not create a binding contract or anything, and once more details are made available there is no obligation on supporters to start their investment if they don’t then agree with the detail being proposed in Phase 2.

Email will be going out to all registered on the FFC website with details of the pledge website, as well as a Q&A and copy of the slides.

There was more but I stopped taking notes at this point just before the Q&A started.

Hope that helps those that werent there!

[EdiBairn]

6 minutes ago, EdiBrain said:

I firmly believe for 10 quid a month I should have a major say in the running of the club & it should not be left to some “elected” individual drunk with power to go crazy with my investment.

In fact once my tenner clears the bank the club should consult me on everything & I would start off by terminating the contract of O’Hara therefore instantly saving us from relegation.

#hero
#neverwrong

It doesn't matter whether you have £1 worth of shares in a company or £10 million. You have a say in how it's run. You don't elect someone to do it on your behalf.

[Bainsfordbairn]

4 minutes ago, EdiBairn said:

This is the big issue for me. If the people paying £10 a month don't get to attend AGMs, vote on directors etc, then this isn't a share scheme at all really.

From the information given tonight anyone who participates will be buying shares at 33p each and will thus become a shareholder. With all the rights to attend AGMs this entails.

The only difference is that their voting rights won't be exercised individually on the night of the AGM.

The fans shareholding will be a "block" vote. There will probably need to be a fans group, made up of payees into the scheme. where individuals will be asked how the entire group should vote on AGM night. I presume the voting power of individuals in this group will depend on how much they've contributed. The group will be represented by whoever they choose to nominate.

At least that was my take on the presentation.  I may be completely wrong as those details may not have been worked out yet and my assumptions could be inaccurate.

I don't think that was what tonight was about though. It was simply to introduce the proposed scheme to us ordinary fans and see if there was enough "buyin" to make it viable.

It seems that you're picking faults with details which may not have been agreed yet.  Particularly as you can contact the people who will provide those details at any time. 

If you're so interested I suggest you speak to them rather than posting on P&B. Will you make that contact, as you evidently failed to do after your comments on the consortium were rebuffed? 

Or will you hide behind an internet username and use it to criticise the work of others from anonymity?

 

 

[Cheeringmango]

3 hours ago, CC52 FFC said:

http://clubfk.wixsite.com/backthebairns

Link for anyone who was at the fan ownership meeting tonight and you want to pledge towards it. If you want change and are in the position to do so I urge you to get behind it. Info out tomorrow on it.

Could not make the meeting due to living in the Highlands but pledged and forwarded the link to friends/family... 

I can really see this happening if the information keeps coming through as well as it has so far... exposure is key! 

Is the link the only way anyone interested can express there interest?

Is this something that has been looked at/assesed? Older generations or none p&b/coyb page users ect would need to be targeted in a different manor, be that on match days or via newspapers ect and the option of a possible postal reply would suit alot I would imagine? 

[oot_the_loop]

1 minute ago, Cheeringmango said:

Could not make the meeting due to living in the Highlands but pledged and forwarded the link to friends/family... 

I can really see this happening if the information keeps coming through as well as it has so far... exposure is key! 

Is the link the only way anyone interested can express there interest?

Is this something that has been looked at/assesed? Older generations or none p&b/coyb page users ect would need to be targeted in a different manor, be that on match days or via newspapers ect and the option of a possible postal reply would suit alot I would imagine? 

Was asked and suggested that an ad be taken in the Falkirk Herald or somthing similar.

[knee jerk reaction]

1 minute ago, Bainsfordbairn said:

From the information given tonight anyone who participates will be buying shares at 33p each and will thus become a shareholder. With all the rights to attend AGMs this entails.

The only difference is that their voting rights won't be exercised individually on the night of the AGM.

The fans shareholding will be a "block" vote. There will probably need to be a fans group, made up of payees into the scheme. where individuals will be asked how the entire group should vote on AGM night. I presume the voting power of individuals in this group will depend on how much they've contributed. The group will be represented by whoever they choose to nominate.

At least that was my take on the presentation.  I may be completely wrong as those details may not have been worked out yet and my assumptions could be inaccurate.

I don't think that was what tonight was about though. It was simply to introduce the proposed scheme to us ordinary fans and see if there was enough "buyin" to make it viable.

It seems that you're picking faults with details which may not have been agreed yet.  Particularly as you can contact the people who will provide those details at any time. 

If you're so interested I suggest you speak to them rather than posting on P&B. Will you make that contact, as you evidently failed to do after your comments on the consortium were rebuffed? 

Or will you hide behind an internet username and use it to criticise the work of others from anonymity?

 

 

4 minutes ago, EdiBairn said:

It doesn't matter whether you have £1 worth of shares in a company or £10 million. You have a say in how it's run. You don't elect someone to do it on your behalf.

This is getting ridiculous now, so someone who has a £1  worth of shares in a multi national company has the same say as a pension fund who have invested millions?  @EdiBairn  that's how big companies work,  people are elected to the board, please stop trolling and if you really are a falkirk fan actually contribute positively to the forum.

[knee jerk reaction]

5 minutes ago, oot_the_loop said:

Was asked and suggested that an ad be taken in the Falkirk Herald or somthing similar.

The match programme was also suggested,  good ideas