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Kris Boyd

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18 hours ago, ICTChris said:

I don’t think Boris Johnson and the Tories are going to sell off the NHS and give us a US style healthcare system. I’m not saying they are any good or that I’m going to vote for them but I think the rhetoric on it has become a bit over egged.

I would be interested to know why you think this? 

There's footage of Trump saying "everything is on the table, NHS, everything" when he speaks to Americans, when he was asked by UK media this week he said he didn't know where that rumour had come from and it wasn't true. That shows to me that his wee Tory pals have told him to piss on that particular fire. I am extremely worried and I've seen nothing to ease my fears.

2 hours ago, thomas said:

I read something about this which was claiming they would sell the NHS but would do it very slowly and systematically meaning you wouldn't really notice until it was to late to stop it, wish I could remember where i found it but that is certainly what I believe they'll do now if given the chance.

It's already started. 

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I was talking to the berlief that if the Tories win then they will change the NHS to a US style healthcare system.  There's a viral video of people being told the cost of healthcare procedures in the US, the message being that there is the prospect that this could happen in the UK.  The changes required to move to a US style healthcare system would be so sweeping, so massive and so complicated that 1) no government could deliver them, 2) no government would ever promise them and 3) there isn't really anyone who wants it.

You have the claim by Jeremy Corbyn that the Tories want to give Donald Trump £500m a week from the NHS and that the NHS is "on the table" in trade talks.  But that isn't what they showed, the minutes showed that the yanks think that other countires underpay US pharmacutical companies for drugs.  Maybe they do, maybe they don't but it doesn't show that the NHS is for sale.  I doubt Donald Trump knew what the NHS was until a few weeks ago.

There is an increase of private companies providing services to the NHS but it is relatively small percentage of total NHS spending.  The evidence that the NHS is going to imminently be moved to a US style healthcare system is scant, as far as I can see.  The pressures on the NHS from the reduction of immigration we are presumably going to see post-Brexit and an ageing population could end up putting pressure on the NHS and might result in more private provision and wider use of health insurance but to me that isn't US-style healthcare, it's more like European.

A US healthcare system is an extreme approach that has basically no support in the UK and I think the chances that there is a secret conspiracy to impose it are zero.  Again, that's not to say the Tories will do a great job of running the NHS or that everyone should vote for them. 

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32 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I was talking to the berlief that if the Tories win then they will change the NHS to a US style healthcare system.  There's a viral video of people being told the cost of healthcare procedures in the US, the message being that there is the prospect that this could happen in the UK.  The changes required to move to a US style healthcare system would be so sweeping, so massive and so complicated that 1) no government could deliver them, 2) no government would ever promise them and 3) there isn't really anyone who wants it.

You have the claim by Jeremy Corbyn that the Tories want to give Donald Trump £500m a week from the NHS and that the NHS is "on the table" in trade talks.  But that isn't what they showed, the minutes showed that the yanks think that other countires underpay US pharmacutical companies for drugs.  Maybe they do, maybe they don't but it doesn't show that the NHS is for sale.  I doubt Donald Trump knew what the NHS was until a few weeks ago.

There is an increase of private companies providing services to the NHS but it is relatively small percentage of total NHS spending.  The evidence that the NHS is going to imminently be moved to a US style healthcare system is scant, as far as I can see.  The pressures on the NHS from the reduction of immigration we are presumably going to see post-Brexit and an ageing population could end up putting pressure on the NHS and might result in more private provision and wider use of health insurance but to me that isn't US-style healthcare, it's more like European.

A US healthcare system is an extreme approach that has basically no support in the UK and I think the chances that there is a secret conspiracy to impose it are zero.  Again, that's not to say the Tories will do a great job of running the NHS or that everyone should vote for them. 

Which is why small parts are sold off systematically rather than them planning to make sweeping changes that they'd never be able to push through. I can't speak for everyone but I don't expect that if I woke up to a Tory majority on the 13th December that I would no longer have free health care and would need insurance from that day on, I know the British public wouldn't sit back and watch that happen, but my worry is long term destruction of it which I believe British people absolutely will sit back and watch happen (because the media will do an absolutely awful job of informing people, as they are now). 

The biggest thing that worries me about the NHS being sold off is the fact that every single Tory is now monotonously repeating the line "The NHS is off the table". We'll look back on that line like the £350 Million Bus when this is all over and done with IMO.

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The NHS thing will go as follows. The Tories open up the contracts to supply drugs etc. American companies begin to squeeze their way in setting the price.

Healthcare system becomes more costly to run, NHS becomes more selective about who they give drugs to, or whay drugs they will prescribe. The service itself will begin to miss more targets and the consensus will be the the quality of service is in decline.

More and more people will be helped along by the media into beliveing that a wee private healthcare policy to supplement your NHS entitlement is a good idea. Just a common sense thing to protect your family etc.

Repeat the above cycle on a permanent loop until it is completely normal and every has, to one degree or another, a private healthcare policy.

Defund the NHS to just the right level to keep that cycle self propelled. It will take years to reach the point of being defunct, but if they get years, thats how they will do it.

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6 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

The NHS thing will go as follows. The Tories open up the contracts to supply drugs etc. American companies begin to squeeze their way in setting the price.

Healthcare system becomes more costly to run, NHS becomes more selective about who they give drugs to, or whay drugs they will prescribe. The service itself will begin to miss more targets and the consensus will be the the quality of service is in decline.

More and more people will be helped along by the media into beliveing that a wee private healthcare policy to supplement your NHS entitlement is a good idea. Just a common sense thing to protect your family etc.

Repeat the above cycle on a permanent loop until it is completely normal and every has, to one degree or another, a private healthcare policy.

Defund the NHS to just the right level to keep that cycle self propelled. It will take years to reach the point of being defunct, but if they get years, thats how they will do it.

Some of these things will happen naturally - healthcare will probably increase in cost due to the ageing population and one that has a higher level of chronic illnesses.  That will incrase the pressure on the NHS and would make drug provision more restricted. 

The process you are talking about also sounds extremely long term.  Currently about 10% of the UK population have private healthcare and around 10% of the NHS budget is spent by private providers (not priviatisation per se).  I'm not sure of the rates of increase or decrase of these but it isn't partiuclarly high - is there really a plan over decades to do this?  I don't think there is.   In order for this plan to work it would have to be ramped up very quickly and that doesn't appear to be happening.

Also, the point that you and the other poster make about the media doesn't fit.  Support for the NHS is absolutely rock solid - the media clearly need to up their game if they are going to increase the uptake of private healthcare.  Also also, the UK funds healthcare at roughly the same rate as most other countries in Europe, some of them spend a little more, some a little les, all of them in different ways.  Are these comparable countries also defunding their healthcare in order to fully privitise it?

I remember studying the NHS when I was doing Stndard Grade Modern Studies in the mid 1990s and variations of what you've posted were claimed then.  If you take a look back to the Blair government, who increased health spending sgnificantly compared to previous governments, then people said the same thing.

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17 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Some of these things will happen naturally - healthcare will probably increase in cost due to the ageing population and one that has a higher level of chronic illnesses.  That will incrase the pressure on the NHS and would make drug provision more restricted. 

The process you are talking about also sounds extremely long term.  Currently about 10% of the UK population have private healthcare and around 10% of the NHS budget is spent by private providers (not priviatisation per se).  I'm not sure of the rates of increase or decrase of these but it isn't partiuclarly high - is there really a plan over decades to do this?  I don't think there is.   In order for this plan to work it would have to be ramped up very quickly and that doesn't appear to be happening.

Also, the point that you and the other poster make about the media doesn't fit.  Support for the NHS is absolutely rock solid - the media clearly need to up their game if they are going to increase the uptake of private healthcare.  Also also, the UK funds healthcare at roughly the same rate as most other countries in Europe, some of them spend a little more, some a little les, all of them in different ways.  Are these comparable countries also defunding their healthcare in order to fully privitise it?

I remember studying the NHS when I was doing Stndard Grade Modern Studies in the mid 1990s and variations of what you've posted were claimed then.  If you take a look back to the Blair government, who increased health spending sgnificantly compared to previous governments, then people said the same thing.

Its just my personal view of how they will go about it tbh, and that I believe strongly that its on the cards. Obviously its a fairly boiled view of an extemely complex and large scale thing.

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5 hours ago, FalkirkBairn93 said:

 


Literally the one place I don’t discuss politics is on here haha. For that very reason. There’s no rationale or debate. I’ll stick to finishing my politics degree and getting proper debate through that.

Interesting.   With respect , you sound like just another one of the so many ( mostly  Conservative ) MP's who go to university.... to do PPE , ( Politics, Philosophy,

and Economics )....  which enables them to sound convincing.     One example is my local MP,  one James Heappey ( Con ) who,  when he got elected, made

repeated  and full references to his service in the Army   ( Rural English constituences tend to have an attraction to Conservative candidates who 'wear their

medals' )... , portrayed himself as living locally ( he rented a house 200 yards down the road from me.  I hardly ever saw the lights on when I walked past in the

evening ).  etc, etc.

 

He  always sounded really smooth, which seemed a bit odd to me, for someone who was  making the most of having recently been a soldier.

Later, I picked up on a sideways remark by an aquaintance, that Heappey had been to university after leaving the army.  I checked on Wikipedia.

No mention of university.   The university mentioned to me was Birmingham .   I checked with Birmingham...., yup...., he'd done a BA in Politics.

 

As I almost said at the beginning, you sound rather like someone who isn't  too interested in the lives of  constituents, just in making the right noises.

Edited by beefybake

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13 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Some of these things will happen naturally - healthcare will probably increase in cost due to the ageing population and one that has a higher level of chronic illnesses.  That will incrase the pressure on the NHS and would make drug provision more restricted. 

The process you are talking about also sounds extremely long term.  Currently about 10% of the UK population have private healthcare and around 10% of the NHS budget is spent by private providers (not priviatisation per se).  I'm not sure of the rates of increase or decrase of these but it isn't partiuclarly high - is there really a plan over decades to do this?  I don't think there is.   In order for this plan to work it would have to be ramped up very quickly and that doesn't appear to be happening.

Also, the point that you and the other poster make about the media doesn't fit.  Support for the NHS is absolutely rock solid - the media clearly need to up their game if they are going to increase the uptake of private healthcare.  Also also, the UK funds healthcare at roughly the same rate as most other countries in Europe, some of them spend a little more, some a little les, all of them in different ways.  Are these comparable countries also defunding their healthcare in order to fully privitise it?

I remember studying the NHS when I was doing Stndard Grade Modern Studies in the mid 1990s and variations of what you've posted were claimed then.  If you take a look back to the Blair government, who increased health spending sgnificantly compared to previous governments, then people said the same thing.

^^^big party found.

Or you could make the fundamental decision that how you treat the health of your citizens is paramount to how you want to be defined as a country and instead of acquiesing creeping privatisation and population changes by shrugging your shoulders and accepting it as inevitable, you make provision for this as a first class healthcare system is kind of, like, important. 

There has clearly been a test of the water in the past decade. The sale of plasma services to Romney's Bain Capital was an absolute scandal. You might remember them from such equity adventures as Burger King and Pizza Express. Turns out that instead of creating a life sciences hub, they sold it off to Chinese investment for a 600m profit, prompting the US government to show concern at a vital health asset being sold off. Let's not forget the gold lols  of Virgin Care using the NHS too.

Whilst there won't be an immediate transition, the ideology and direction of travel is clear. I think I'm the same age as you. I don't care if it is overnight or long term - but health and education are vital barometer of how you treat the citizens. There is absolutely no shame in making it absolutely clear that the health service is at stake and worth fighting for.

Interesting that your concern is reserved for this also. Do you have the same concern at our role in Yemen? Do you have the same concern at the preventable austerity related deaths? Do you have the same concern for ALN provision in England and Wales and the impact academisation had on this and inclusive education? Seems weird your concern would be reserved for people worried about the future of the NHS when issues like these are also on the table. 

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I could've sworn we have a section dedicated to politics to stop this tedious "debating" happening in GN.

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55 minutes ago, JMDP said:

^^^big party found.

Or you could make the fundamental decision that how you treat the health of your citizens is paramount to how you want to be defined as a country and instead of acquiesing creeping privatisation and population changes by shrugging your shoulders and accepting it as inevitable, you make provision for this as a first class healthcare system is kind of, like, important. 

There has clearly been a test of the water in the past decade. The sale of plasma services to Romney's Bain Capital was an absolute scandal. You might remember them from such equity adventures as Burger King and Pizza Express. Turns out that instead of creating a life sciences hub, they sold it off to Chinese investment for a 600m profit, prompting the US government to show concern at a vital health asset being sold off. Let's not forget the gold lols  of Virgin Care using the NHS too.

Whilst there won't be an immediate transition, the ideology and direction of travel is clear. I think I'm the same age as you. I don't care if it is overnight or long term - but health and education are vital barometer of how you treat the citizens. There is absolutely no shame in making it absolutely clear that the health service is at stake and worth fighting for.

Interesting that your concern is reserved for this also. Do you have the same concern at our role in Yemen? Do you have the same concern at the preventable austerity related deaths? Do you have the same concern for ALN provision in England and Wales and the impact academisation had on this and inclusive education? Seems weird your concern would be reserved for people worried about the future of the NHS when issues like these are also on the table. 

I don't think that the direction of travel is clear.  You've taken a couple of examples but the overall picture doesn't back up what you are saying.  If there is a direction of travel it's so slow that the idea it's part of some sort of conspiracy to create a US style healthcare system in Britain doesn't hold up.  If there is going to be any change in the provision of healthcare then I think it's likely to be a  slow move towards a more European style system but it would be so unpopular that I don't think anyone would implement it.  

Also, you are making the assumption that I've reserved my concern for this because I posted about it here.  I just find this topic interesting rather than it being the entire focus of my being.

One thing that is interesting is how completely central healthcare is to British politics, compared to other countries.  I remember reading a tweet by a French journalist who said that it was bizarre that most other countries healthcare is just something you use when you are ill but in Britain it's become something completely central to the politics of the country.   You look at elections in other European countries and healthcare isn't as big an issue at all.  Many of those countries have healthcare systems that are pretty similar to the UK as well.

 

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Brexiting will see the cost of drugs that we currently get at favourable rates from being part of the EU go stratospheric. Brexit is a huge opportunity for the US drug companies to cash in. 

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On 03/12/2019 at 18:48, ICTChris said:

I don’t think Boris Johnson and the Tories are going to sell off the NHS and give us a US style healthcare system. I’m not saying they are any good or that I’m going to vote for them but I think the rhetoric on it has become a bit over egged.

You chase shiny red balls onto the road without looking don't you?

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22 hours ago, Empty It said:

I could've sworn we have a section dedicated to politics to stop this tedious "debating" happening in GN.

^^^Unpopular opinions thread for this pish

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Old school jazz mags, like Fiesta and Knave, are far superior to internet porn.


Classic still filth.

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1 hour ago, tongue_tied_danny said:

Old school jazz mags, like Fiesta and Knave, are far superior to internet porn.

You got any readers wives?

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