Faith Schools

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Perhaps you can indicate in what sense Protestant schools are not Faith schools?

What is the definition of a "Faith" school?

Arguments about semantics almost always end in a draw as interpretation of language is ultimately subjective.

However it should be sufficient to point out that to be useful to your argument we need to be taking a definition of "faith" sufficiently granular to mark Roman Catholicism and Protestantism as separate Faiths, as opposed to parts of one faith, but not so granular as to identify individual denominations as faiths.

This point of view generally makes sense to people who have been led to believe that all protestant churches are basically the same, which from a bigoted RC point of view they are. Indeed the insistence on the expression "Protestant School" instead of "Non Denominational" is often symptomatic of that world view.

[H_B]

You made a universal statement and then backed it up with anecdotal evidence about a single local instance that you take to be representative.

All schools in Scotland are Faith schools.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/149160/0039649.pdf

The Secretary of State is of the view that religious education and religious observance

are valid and important educational experiences at all stages in primary and secondary

schools. Religious education should receive the attention and facilities merited by its

fundamental place in the curriculum. Syllabuses of religious education should in all schools

be based on Christianity as the main religious tradition of Scotland but should also take

account of the teaching and practices of other principal religions.

The Secretary of State considers that religious observance complements religious

education and is an important contribution to pupils’ spiritual development. It can also have

a subsidiary role in promoting the ethos of a school by bringing pupils together and creating

a feeling of corporate identity. In non-denominational schools religious observance should

be of a broadly Christian character.

[H_B]

Arguments about semantics almost always end in a draw as interpretation of language is ultimately subjective.

However it should be sufficient to point out that to be useful to your argument we need to be taking a definition of "faith" sufficiently granular to mark Roman Catholicism and Protestantism as separate Faiths, as opposed to parts of one faith, but not so granular as to identify individual denominations as faiths.

This point of view generally makes sense to people who have been led to believe that all protestant churches are basically the same, which from a bigoted RC point of view they are. Indeed the insistence on the expression "Protestant School" instead of "Non Denominational" is often symptomatic of that world view.

There is a specific "non-denominational Christianity".

In Scotland we have Protestant Christian schools.

[H_B]

In many ways, Catholic schools, whilst like their state counterparts still abhorrent in their indoctrination of children as encouraged by the state, are at least open about their denomination.

The Church of Scotland instead infiltrates schools in the Protestant state system by stealth.

[parsforlife]

If you are a bigot, yes you can.

Bigots often justify their bigotry in this way.

Barking up the wrong tree with your bigotry shite, I have given valid logical arguments which clearly identify faith schools to be stronger in their influence over their pupils, this is due to the control they have over the religious views of staff and the control over what pupils get to attend the school. There are other aspects as well of course including the fact that unlike faith schools ND schools are not one church like you are trying to paint a picture of.

[stumigoo]

Then you should be aware that religous observance and RE are two different things ..

and do ant Priests, Rabbis or muslim clerics have any say in religious festivals?

Yes I am, I was simply giving an insight into my experiences with the CoS (practically zero) within RE as a subject. To answer the other question we have had Imams in the school on a semi regular basis to talk to school about festivals like Eid and why some students go to Friday prayers. We even had some Hindu elders in to talk about Diwali at an assembly. It would be unusual but not uncommon to see elders, ministers etc of other faiths in our school.

I think you can take it that the CoS may not wish input into RC schools.

I know this, I was trying to say that I have no idea what the curriculum is for Catholic schools or the RO in Catholic schools is, as I haven't had any experience of this (an atheist RE teacher might not go down so well!)

Oh yeah?

So CoS ministers for example don't conduct religious ceremonies in Scotland's Protestant schools? They don't attend assemblies weekly and deliver a religious message?

Not in any school I have worked in. Once or twice a year, yes. They attend prize giving and do talk during certain times of the year at assemblies but my own experience is that it does depend on the school. I worked in a school for two years and didn't see anyone from the church connected to the school but in my current school the local minister does come into the school regularly, but usually this is to meet with the Rector and to say hello to staff (keeping up appearances more than anything)

No, it's not understandable at all.

Either you are against religious indoctrination and influence over education, or you are not.

What are your views on religious observances in local schools, conducted by House Chaplains, and religious education focussing on Christiantity?

Again just to offer my own personal experience, we look at Christianity as a faith for one six week block in S2, both other than that we don't explicitly teach it. We look at it very briefly at Easter, Christmas etc and we offer 'Christian responses' to moral issues (my Highers are looking at Christian responses to War for example) but my own experiences have been that Christianity is not a 'focus' of RE and that our kids are usually more interested in other world faiths. RE is more about moral issues now anyway, I reckon it is about 70% moral, 30% religion.

I'm only offering these points as someone who currently works in Religious Education. My own personal views on 'faith schools' (and I know that can include all schools in some sense) is that they create separatism only in the school curriculum and school practices but not in a bigotry type way. The kids at St.Pauls and St.Johns will get slightly different school experiences but they usually have no hatred towards us 'ND' schools and vice-versa. The only hatred is the usual "we're from Stobbie, your from Kirkton" but it isn't religious. The employment thing is a fucking disgrace though. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable teaching an RC RE curriculum but the fact that I couldn't get a promoted post in a school possibly based on my religious preference is a disgrace and I am sure is possibly illegal in some way.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

All schools in Scotland are Faith schools.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/149160/0039649.pdf

With all due respect to both yourself and Ian Lang...

It's possible you might be assigning too much significance to the stated opinion of a Tory Secretary of State for Scotland 23 years ago.

[H_B]

Barking up the wrong tree with your bigotry shite, I have given valid logical arguments which clearly identify faith schools to be stronger in their influence over their pupils, this is due to the control they have over the religious views of staff

What on earth are you talking about here? Many RC school teachers are not catholic.

Who has'control' over their religious views?

Bigot found im afraid. The disgrace in RC schools relates to promoted posts.

Please also tell me about the curriculum differences between Protestant Faith schools and RC state schools.

[H_B]

Yes I am, I was simply giving an insight into my experiences with the CoS (practically zero) within RE as a subject. To answer the other question we have had Imams in the school on a semi regular basis to talk to school about festivals like Eid and why some students go to Friday prayers. We even had some Hindu elders in to talk about Diwali at an assembly. It would be unusual but not uncommon to see elders, ministers etc of other faiths in our school.

I know this, I was trying to say that I have no idea what the curriculum is for Catholic schools or the RO in Catholic schools is, as I haven't had any experience of this (an atheist RE teacher might not go down so well!)

Not in any school I have worked in. Once or twice a year, yes. They attend prize giving and do talk during certain times of the year at assemblies but my own experience is that it does depend on the school. I worked in a school for two years and didn't see anyone from the church connected to the school but in my current school the local minister does come into the school regularly, but usually this is to meet with the Rector and to say hello to staff (keeping up appearances more than anything)

Again just to offer my own personal experience, we look at Christianity as a faith for one six week block in S2, both other than that we don't explicitly teach it. We look at it very briefly at Easter, Christmas etc and we offer 'Christian responses' to moral issues (my Highers are looking at Christian responses to War for example) but my own experiences have been that Christianity is not a 'focus' of RE and that our kids are usually more interested in other world faiths. RE is more about moral issues now anyway, I reckon it is about 70% moral, 30% religion.

I'm only offering these points as someone who currently works in Religious Education. My own personal views on 'faith schools' (and I know that can include all schools in some sense) is that they create separatism only in the school curriculum and school practices but not in a bigotry type way. The kids at St.Pauls and St.Johns will get slightly different school experiences but they usually have no hatred towards us 'ND' schools and vice-versa. The only hatred is the usual "we're from Stobbie, your from Kirkton" but it isn't religious. The employment thing is a fucking disgrace though. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable teaching an RC RE curriculum but the fact that I couldn't get a promoted post in a school possibly based on my religious preference is a disgrace and I am sure is possibly illegal in some way.

As someone who unfortunately had to sit through two years of RC RE education... after which it became optional, can you tell me what makes you uncomfortable versus the Protestant faith school curriculum?

We learned about all world religions. And virtually nothing about Catholicism.

Something you can check quite easily by asking 100 Rc pupils about the bible ir really anything to do with 'their' religion. They ll be clueless.

Its also forgotten deliberately by many with bigot tendencies that many (in some schools a majority) of pupils at RC schools are not Catholic.

[H_B]

What the focus should be in here is completely secularising the state education system.

Which means ditching all our Faith schools... Protestant or Catholic thus preventing the CoS or the RC church from having a platform to lie to children.

Anyone who disagrees with this but also thinks RC schools are a problem is a bigot. Plain and (very) simple.

[stumigoo]

As someone who unfortunately had to sit through two years of RC RE education... after which it became optional, can you tell me what makes you uncomfortable versus the Protestant faith school curriculum?

We learned about all world religions. And virtually nothing about Catholicism.

Something you can check quite easily by asking 100 Rc pupils about the bible ir really anything to do with 'their' religion. They ll be clueless.

Its also forgotten deliberately by many with bigot tendencies that many (in some schools a majority) of pupils at RC schools are not Catholic.

My own personal beliefs really (and in knowing that I wouldn't stand a chance of geeting a job in one anyway!) The RE RC curriculum is weighted for a Catholic 'audience'. Even though you correctly point out that many children in RC schools are not Catholic the curriculum in RE is stil weighted as such so I wouldn't feel as passionate about my subject if I was covering some of the topics they are asked to cover compared to my current school. Here is the RC curriculum, and here is the 'standard' curriculum. Of course individual schools do have autonomy over what they teach to an extent but I would imagine that the influence of the church in a Catholic school RE curriculum is greater than in my own (as I ssaid previously there is virtually none where I am) We have a tremendous amount of freedom in my school and it makes for a much more engaging subject. On top of teaching every pupil in the school in core RE from S1 to S6 our figures are now out for kids taking us as a certificated subject for next year and in S3 we have more numbers than both Geography and History (but not Modern Studies) and we have a comparable amount taking it in S4-6 (about 70)

Plus yes I am writing this while at work (I only recently discovered being able to acces P&B at work! Its not affecting my teaching, honest!)

[parsforlife]

What on earth are you talking about here? Many RC school teachers are not catholic.

Who has'control' over their religious views?

Bigot found im afraid. The disgrace in RC schools relates to promoted posts.

Please also tell me about the curriculum differences between Protestant Faith schools and RC state schools.

No , all teachers,http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/44

I would say, that when someone's employment and any subsequent promotions are related to their (perceived) religious views then that is certainly a element of control.

Would you not?

What the focus should be in here is completely secularising the state education system.

Which means ditching all our Faith schools... Protestant or Catholic thus preventing the CoS or the RC church from having a platform to lie to children.

Anyone who disagrees with this but also thinks RC schools are a problem is a bigot. Plain and (very) simple.

So I'm a bigot, yet I am classed not as one by your bigot test?

[adam4267]

I've been an RE teacher in Dundee for 5 years and the Church of Scotland have had zero input into a single thing that I've taught or indeed into the structure of our curriculum. They do have an input for services at Christmas etc but that has nothing to do with the RE department and is dealt with by the Rector.

Edit: And I can vouch that this is the case across all ND schools in Dundee(I don't know much about the two RC schools)

The English exam boards are in a ridiculous state so I just get very agitated when people comment on them. I'm a teacher and despite our current (and flawed) education system it is a damn sight better than the English setup and in particular the faith school setup, which has been made clear by that article. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with the sentiment of your post, I just didn't want anyone thinking that it was either A) the norm or B) (more importantly) that it was Scottish! So going back to the point about the Government, it is the English Government's responsibility so has little to no bearing to us, thankfully.

Also I apologise if you went to an Orthodox Jewish school, Shamone! (or whatever it is that Jewish people say to each other)

Seriously?

[THE KING]

Seriously?

Lol...And Moses said to the slave..Shamone Mudder Fukkers!