Twitter

[Bairnardo]

To put it into context, I would like the maws attitude to punishable. IE is she carried on like that at work she should be sacked. Not sure I want to see Jimmy punished for his crime in isolation. He would need to show me more.

[Bairnardo]

I have no time for the idea salt o the earth characters should get some special dispensation to use racist terms. I think it's very risky territory to somehow conflate thoughtless use of language with some sort of assault on the working class. It's 2019. Everyone has the sum of human knowledge accessible on their phone. It's such a simple adjustment to just not say these things, there's really no excuse.

I agree that theres no excuse, I just dont think that alone shows he is a racist.

[Savage Henry]

I agree that theres no excuse, I just dont think that alone shows he is a racist.

 

Told that the term is now, by any standards, derogatory, if Jimmy continues to use it then he very likely is a racist. Language evolves whether we like it or not.

 

It’s actually a good example because it wasn’t long ago posters evenon here would try to use the “Chinky/Scot” analogy as justification for using it - along with ‘my best friend is Chinese’ line. Anyone trying that now is probably a troll.

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

To put it into context, I would like the maws attitude to punishable. IE is she carried on like that at work she should be sacked. Not sure I want to see Jimmy punished for his crime in isolation. He would need to show me more.

It comes down to not being a c**t. If you know that a stranger wouldn't like being called or referred to by some term, don't do it. It's basic manners. People you know you can call what you like, but there might be consequences. 

[Bairnardo]

I'd have to disagree here. As was discussed at length with Danny Baker for just about any employer in the 21st century, sackable racist conduct is determined based on the perception as opposed to the intention of the person who said it. Being sacked for saying it with no hostile intentions is a very painful lesson indeed, but its one anyone with a scintilla of common sense can avoid.

Its hard to argue against that. Its just a symptom of the social media times IMO that there is no room for nuance anymore. People just charge around branding other people with tags that genuinely dont have any wiggle room like racist, but what does and doesnt make someone a racist person is pretty nuanced, at least to some degree. Its not as binary as it gets made out sometimes but thats what its becoming.

Sometimes I just get a bit fucked off that people can happily debate the finer points of a fantasy TV series but when it comes to certain issues, it becomes more of a rush to judgement than a debate. This is why I went back to the difference between Jimmy and the maw.

[welshbairn]

33 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

I'd have to disagree here. As was discussed at length with Danny Baker for just about any employer in the 21st century, sackable racist conduct is determined based on the perception as opposed to the intention of the person who said it. Being sacked for saying it with no hostile intentions is a very painful lesson indeed, but its one anyone with a scintilla of common sense can avoid.

You can't. or shouldn't be, sacked for language you genuinely don't know that is considered to be insulting by whoever you're talking about. I'd imagine that would be a very rare event though. Unless @WATTOO is about.

[pandarilla]

People from Ayrshire should not get involved in any discussion relating to racism.  They can’t help but out themselves. 
Convinced that drunk uncle on Limmy’s Christmas special was from Ayr. 

Any attempt to take the moral high ground is lost when you come away with shite like this Ali.

[pandarilla]

You call people black b*****ds and think it’s perfectly acceptable. Wattoo is now saying we shouldn’t have hate crimes ffs. You’re all fucking nuts. 

I've never sang the song in my life.

I'm just pointing out that there's absolutely nothing racist about it in the context of the song. That's not difficult to understand, surely.

The common sense argument is one I adhere to, but I'm not going to stand back whilst fans are demonised as being racist when they're not.

[pandarilla]

I'd have to disagree again. Most employers will have a code of conduct setting out the perception principle in detail. Employees can't claim ignorance as a defence, otherwise folk who really do mean it could wriggle out of trouble every time.

That doesn't mean to say they're right though.

One of the biggest problems with political correctness (which I fully support I might add), is that some people make poor judgments based on fear. This helps no-one, and generally just pisses people off.

I think the BBC were wrong to sack baker.

[pandarilla]

I'd have to disagree again. Most employers will have a code of conduct setting out the perception principle in detail. Employees can't claim ignorance as a defence, otherwise folk who really do mean it could wriggle out of trouble every time.

That doesn't mean to say they're right though.

One of the biggest problems with political correctness (which I fully support I might add), is that some people make poor judgments based on fear. This helps no-one, and generally just pisses people off.

I think the BBC were wrong to sack baker.

[pandarilla]

No, you have suggested there is nuance on an issue of employment when there is none. I'm not writing off anybody.

Apologies, that reply was to Ali.

In response to your post I would still suggest that whether they were right to sack him is a matter of opinion.

[pandarilla]

 
 

This is my reply to the post above.

Ok. But you've oversimplified the issue, and done yourself no favours by writing off a reasonable-sized part of the country.

[pandarilla]

If it is a matter of opinion rather than fact, he probably has a very strong case to sue for wrongful dismissal. He won't do this.

I'm pretty certain he won't sue, but not necessarily because he won't win, and more likely for reasons of public relations.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

If it is a matter of opinion rather than fact, he probably has a very strong case to sue for wrongful dismissal. He won't do this.

In his case as a proud English football fan with memory of bananas, and a thorough knowledge of the Royal Family, including a reference to Wallis Simpson a day or so before his monkey tweet, there's no excuse. Some old guy asking if anyone wants a chinky could be ignorant of the insult though.

[pandarilla]

In his case as a proud English football fan with memory of bananas, and a thorough knowledge of the Royal Family, including a reference to Wallis Simpson a day or so before his monkey tweet, there's no excuse. Some old guy asking if anyone wants a chinky could be ignorant of the insult though.

Knowing about Wallis Simpson is hardly the same as remembering that Meghan Markle is mixed race.

I certainly didn't register at first when I saw it, and yet I'm perfectly aware of the issue of monkey chants (and I've seen the film about the stuttering king in the 1930s for good measure).

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Knowing about Wallis Simpson is hardly the same as remembering that Meghan Markle is mixed race.

I certainly didn't register at first when I saw it, and yet I'm perfectly aware of the issue of monkey chants (and I've seen the film about the stuttering king in the 1930s for good measure).

You didn't run a prime time radio talk show where you're expected to know the basics of what's going on. The photo of her Mum was plastered all over the place not long before his tweet, and on the day of the wedding. I think he was trying to be edgy rather than directly and consciously racist, but there's not much difference.

Edited May 20, 2019 by welshbairn

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

Dont jump down my throat here, but is there a differentiation between using a racist term and being a racist?

I have had this arguement before on here, probably not wise to go too deep again but a couple of the exampkes above.... for me....

Wee Jimmy from Cardenden talkkng about his chinky is using racist language, but I am not yet sure if he is a racist.

The maw who tells her kids not to play with black kids is a full blown racist, who shows prejudice and treats people differently based on race. The definition of racism is a hot topic and not really clear but for me, once I know you are willing to treat someone differently and negatively because of their race you are a racist. A terrible mud to be branded with and not easily removed.

For me personally, I just dont know yet that Jimmy from Cardenden is a bad person. The maw, I know she is and deserving of the brand.

Thougts?

I'd agree with you and this is pretty much my own thoughts.

The problem we have here and across society in general is that there's so many self righteous people who believe that THEIR interpretation is the correct one and indeed the only one and that everyone else is a racist apologist, ignorant, "yer da" etc.

Ironically this attitude in itself is a perfect example of intolerance and lack of understanding and in my opinion THEY are the ignorant and closed minded ones, but again that's just my opinion and I'm more than happy to debate in an attempt to appreciate their viewpoint, but the question is, are they ??

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

You call people black b*****ds and think it’s perfectly acceptable. Wattoo is now saying we shouldn’t have hate crimes ffs. You’re all fucking nuts. 

Are you genuinely stupid or just trying to start an argument ?

If you can give me a good reason, in fact ANY reason why stabbing someone due to his colour as opposed to stabbing someone due to what town they come from should carry a different punishment, then I'd be extremely interested to hear it ??

[pandarilla]

You didn't run a prime time radio talk show where you're expected to know the basics of what's going on. The photo of her Mum was plastered all over the place not long before his tweet, and on the day of the wedding. I think he was trying to be edgy rather than directly and consciously racist, but there's not much difference.

What's edgy about it though?

That's the issue I have with that explanation. There's nothing remotely clever about a monkey reference when race is involved. There's nothing close to the bone about it, it's so far beyond the pale.

That's why I think he's genuinely not made the connection between the mother and her heritage.

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

Are you genuinely stupid or just trying to start an argument ?

If you can give me a good reason, in fact ANY reason why stabbing someone due to his colour as opposed to stabbing someone due to what town they come from should carry a different punishment, then I'd be extremely interested to hear it ??

Because you stabbing someone because they come from a neighbouring village does not have the possible wider ramifications of stabbing someone because they are a different colour. Keep it in Ayrshire and it won't spread. Equally stupid though. You seem to spend your whole time on here looking for weaker and weaker excuses for racism.

Edited May 20, 2019 by welshbairn