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[pandarilla]

Clearly. People saying things about, or using terms to refer to other races, don't get to decide whether they're being insulting or not. If a stranger doesn't like being referred to as  coloured, you stop using it. Otherwise you're being deliberately rude, and a racist. No matter whether or not it it used to the normal language in the 50's.

I fully agree with this reasoning - but it doesn't at all apply to the use of the term black in Ayrshire villages.

[throbber]

Eh? If she referred to him as a picaninny it would. I don't understand your point. 

I’m not sure why you felt the need to use a racist term to make your point. This is getting a bit like the blasphemy/jehova sketch in Monty Python.

[Priti priti priti Patel]

6 hours ago, ali_91 said:

That’s a ridiculous analogy. For someone so eloquent, you are very dense. 

It's an argumentative device. You use a more extreme set of facts to prove a logical relationship. Here, a kid with no knowledge of why the teacher dislikes the term and motivated merely by a desire not to do what he's told, demonstrates that it's possible to continue using a term which causes offence without transforming into "a racist".

An even more extreme set of facts (though actually very common) is one black person continuing to use the N word when a second black person has expressed they dislike its use even within the community. You wouldn't question that the first one is "a racist".

These are of course taking the idea to it's extremely, because doing so makes it easier to see the underlying logic.

I would hazard a guess that you only think this logic doesn't apply in a more common sent of facts, such as an adult white Scottish person continuing to use coloured, because you are, consciously or subconsciously, actually inferring some underlying racial intent/motive for their disregard.

Fwiw I think about these issues a lot. I deal with questions of guilt in my day job and have spent 7 years (so far and going strong) in a relationship with a black woman, plus, living in London, it's pretty normal that a majority of your friends will be non-white.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Margaret Thatcher

[Savage Henry]

13 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

13 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Clearly. People saying things about, or using terms to refer to other races, don't get to decide whether they're being insulting or not. If a stranger doesn't like being referred to as  coloured, you stop using it. Otherwise you're being deliberately rude, and a racist. No matter whether or not it it used to the normal language in the 50's.

I fully agree with this reasoning - but it doesn't at all apply to the use of the term black in Ayrshire villages.

What does it mean?  I genuinely don't know.

It's like the Danny Baker thing - the chimp thing had a distinct meaning if you were in on the joke, but a very different connotation if you weren't.  Likewise, I'm sure that black folk within the Ayrshire villages are aware of how black  is used there, whereas virtually everyone else isn't.

If, say, one of the Ayrshire locals made it big as a celebrity (or even just went off to the big city), they wouldn't very well be able to continue using that phraseology to a national audience.

[pandarilla]

What does it mean?  I genuinely don't know.
It's like the Danny Baker thing - the chimp thing had a distinct meaning if you were in on the joke, but a very different connotation if you weren't.  Likewise, I'm sure that black folk within the Ayrshire villages are aware of how black  is used there, whereas virtually everyone else isn't.
If, say, one of the Ayrshire locals made it big as a celebrity (or even just went off to the big city), they wouldn't very well be able to continue using that phraseology to a national audience.

I know. It's one of those things, and I think Ayr should stop singing it or change the words as it's just not worth it. But it's not in any way racist.

It's to do with coal-mining, and not washing properly. The term 'black' referred to someone being unclean.

My mum used to say it to me every time I came in from playing football on a rainy night. "You're black, you need a bath".

I'm certain an Ayr fan was arrested a few years back at dens, but was released without charge as the racist element wouldn't stand up.

[Priti priti priti Patel]

This Ayr story has reminded me of something else. We have got my sister-in-law staying with us this week from America. She actually brought up the Danny Baker story as she'd heard about it over there. She said that in Nigeria (where they all grew up, and where the country hasn't lived with the spectre of demonisation of black minorities in the way Britain and America has) they call people animals all the time, "you cheeky frog" etc. Apparently she was at college in America and called another black person "you naughty monkey", and they were like "uh, wtf?". And that's when she remembered they see things differently...

3 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

I’m baffled how you, as a lawyer, think this, is in any way a relevant analogy to make. 

No probs. I have explained why I think it is relevant above.

[Mark Connolly]

On 5/19/2019 at 09:19, ali_91 said:

https://twitter.com/burgerkinguk/status/1129748114129215491?s=21

Replies to this are amazing. Seems the right wings idea of free speech is anything racist is fine, but don’t dare suggest you’ll be selling Dairy products. 

 

That is fucking mental.

People actually accusing Burger King of inciting violence and political hatred because they confirmed they were selling milkshakes.

[Guest]

On 5/19/2019 at 10:12, pandarilla said:

I know. It's one of those things, and I think Ayr should stop singing it or change the words as it's just not worth it. But it's not in any way racist.

It's to do with coal-mining, and not washing properly. The term 'black' referred to someone being unclean.

My mum used to say it to me every time I came in from playing football on a rainy night. "You're black, you need a bath".

I'm certain an Ayr fan was arrested a few years back at dens, but was released without charge as the racist element wouldn't stand up.

It's surely down to an individuals perception, understanding and the context.

If a black person was reading this and saw that a Mother was scolding her son for being dirty and referred to him as being "black", then I'm pretty sure that our fictional black person wouldn't take offence, nor should they.

If however,  that same Mother had told her son, "don't be playing with these black kids at school", then our fictional black person would undoubtedly find this offensive and quite rightly so.

Common sense in these sort of issues needs applied but unfortunately this appears to be in very short supply nowadays, with many troublemakers actively going out their way to find offence where none exists.

There's no doubt, the lunatics have well and truly taken over the asylum in this country and another fine example is calling a blackboard a "blackboard" it's quite simply not racist in any way, shape or form and anyone who thinks any differently should be sent to Ailsa house on a one way ticket as far as I'm concerned.

For the record, I do believe Baker knew exactly what he was doing and thought being "controversial" would enhance his fading career and who knows, he may have been right..........

[pandarilla]

I can't ignore this, but the whole blackboard thing is a myth. If it happened at all (which I doubt), it was moronic implementation by over-efficious individuals rather than actual guidance from anyone sensible.

And I'm not sure baker's career was fading. He's not been high profile since the 90s, but I always got the impression that is the easy he wanted it, doing his own quirky things.

[welshbairn]

20 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

It's surely down to an individuals perception, understanding and the context.

If a black person was reading this and saw that a Mother was scolding her son for being dirty and referred to him as being "black", then I'm pretty sure that our fictional black person wouldn't take offence, nor should they.

 

It's a bit different between that example and chanting "black b*****ds" at a football match, I'm sure you'd agree.

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

That is fucking mental.
People actually accusing Burger King of inciting violence and political hatred because they confirmed they were selling milkshakes.

What if a grocers advertised they were selling eggs whilst Nicola sturgeon was in town?

Burger King knew what they were saying.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It's a bit different between that example and chanting "black b*****ds" at a football match, I'm sure you'd agree.

I'm sure we've been over this before but to outsiders Yes, I can see why they'd think this, especially in today's climate but for those of us who've grown up with the coal mining heritage and understanding of this then we don't think of anything other than the "dirty" meaning, so there's really nothing sinister behind it at all.

 

[Guest]

While we're on this sort of subject, where do people stand on "hate crimes" ?

Personally I think having such a distinction is disgraceful and trivialises crime generally.

An example would be a white guy stabbing another white guy because he's from another area of town / different town, this isn't seen as a "hate crime", so the offender gets given a 6 year sentence.

On the other hand a white guy stabs a black guy again because he's from another area of town / different town, however there could be a "racial" angle here so this is deemed a "hate crime" so the offender gets given an 8 year sentence.

Now, forgive me if I'm missing something, but nobody stabs anyone else because they "like" them, so surely every crime is potentially a "hate" crime irrespective of the offender or the victim and both victims in this case sustained the same injuries but bizarrely one victims attack is taken more seriously than the other, is this not fundamentally wrong and also discrimination ??

As I say, I just don't understand the reasoning behind this at all.............

[Mark Connolly]

22 minutes ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said:

What if a grocers advertised they were selling eggs whilst Nicola sturgeon was in town?

Burger King knew what they were saying.

OK then, what advertising should be banned if there are politicians about?

[Savage Henry]

I'm sure we've been over this before but to outsiders Yes, I can see why they'd think this, especially in today's climate but for those of us who've grown up with the coal mining heritage and understanding of this then we don't think of anything other than the "dirty" meaning, so there's really nothing sinister behind it at all.
 

If the people you are singing it at are not part of the “insiders”, they are entitled to react anyway they want.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 

If the people you are singing it at are not part of the “insiders”, they are entitled to react anyway they want.

 

Yes, I don't disagree. I'm all for live and let live.

In fairness though I've only heard us chant it at Killie, so even if we were playing you, we'd be chanting we hate Killie bl**k barstewards and we'll chase them everywhere.

Sad, both the singing and the obsession, granted...............

Edited May 20, 2019 by WATTOO

[welshbairn]

https://twitter.com/scotlandsaysyes/status/1130497136355758081

[Bairnardo]

Dont jump down my throat here, but is there a differentiation between using a racist term and being a racist?

I have had this arguement before on here, probably not wise to go too deep again but a couple of the exampkes above.... for me....

Wee Jimmy from Cardenden talkkng about his chinky is using racist language, but I am not yet sure if he is a racist.

The maw who tells her kids not to play with black kids is a full blown racist, who shows prejudice and treats people differently based on race. The definition of racism is a hot topic and not really clear but for me, once I know you are willing to treat someone differently and negatively because of their race you are a racist. A terrible mud to be branded with and not easily removed.

For me personally, I just dont know yet that Jimmy from Cardenden is a bad person. The maw, I know she is and deserving of the brand.

Thougts?

[Bairnardo]

I suppose my thoughts would be that it wouldn't be clear to a Chinese person whether the person saying 'chinky' meant it as a racist insult or not so it makes little difference and both should invite criticism.

People have used those casual terms for decades and as much as its not right, Jimmy might be a salt of the earth type and would never dream of treating a Chinese person any differently from anyone else. Thats why use of terms like that in certain contexts isnt enough for me to say someone is a racist person.

Someone telling their kids not to play witg the black kids is cut and dry. There are grey areas for me though and often these days, the manner of discourse doesnt allow for grey areas. We see that on here frequently.

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Dont jump down my throat here, but is there a differentiation between using a racist term and being a racist?

I have had this arguement before on here, probably not wise to go too deep again but a couple of the exampkes above.... for me....

Wee Jimmy from Cardenden talkkng about his chinky is using racist language, but I am not yet sure if he is a racist.

The maw who tells her kids not to play with black kids is a full blown racist, who shows prejudice and treats people differently based on race. The definition of racism is a hot topic and not really clear but for me, once I know you are willing to treat someone differently and negatively because of their race you are a racist. A terrible mud to be branded with and not easily removed.

For me personally, I just dont know yet that Jimmy from Cardenden is a bad person. The maw, I know she is and deserving of the brand.

Thougts?

If Jimmy doesn't know that Chinese people don't like it, then fair enough, there's a few on this forum, including me not too long ago. If he's told they don't like it, and keeps using it, then he's rude and probably a racist. If you live in Ayrshire and you shout "black b*****ds" when there are black players on the pitch you are undoubtedly a racist. Didn't mean that before the mines closed doesn't cut it.