T_S_A_R Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 roberto heras has just re-won the 2005 vuelta thanks to an extremely dubious spanish court decision. spain has no shame when it comes to performance enhancing drugs, re-awarding a grand tour to someone who has just been named in the armstrong report. poor dennis menchov 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ1210 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 1355072506[/url]' post='6879074']much like sean yates he has never been involved in doping but he's leaving anyway. Yeah Sean Yates never been involved with doping haha. Motorola, CSC, Discovery Channel and Astana don't see any links with those teams and doping. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Arise Sir Bradley. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myshkin Posted December 31, 2012 Author Share Posted December 31, 2012 I've just finished reading David Walsh's Seven deadly sins. Highly reccomend it. Among many interesting things was a quote from Christophe Bassons: 'The spotlight now should not be on Lance Armstrong but on a sport that is still gangrenous with doping and deceit. The Tour de France 2012 did not reassure me'. He couldn't possibly be referring to the huge performance spike but one rider in particular could he? Shurely not.................. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 He couldn't possibly be referring to the huge performance spike but one rider in particular could he? Honestly not sure who you're referring to. None of the top ten were particularly surprising, or could be called performance spikes. The Vuelta this year looked a lot dirtier than the Tour. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I've just finished reading David Walsh's Seven deadly sins. Highly reccomend it. Among many interesting things was a quote from Christophe Bassons: 'The spotlight now should not be on Lance Armstrong but on a sport that is still gangrenous with doping and deceit. The Tour de France 2012 did not reassure me'. He couldn't possibly be referring to the huge performance spike but one rider in particular could he? Shurely not.................. I've just bought it with Amazon Christmas vouchers. Kimmage again doubting Wiggins and co... http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-unconvinced-by-sky-and-wiggins 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Honestly not sure who you're referring to. None of the top ten were particularly surprising, or could be called performance spikes. The Vuelta this year looked a lot dirtier than the Tour. they both looked extremely dirty to me. uk postal were ridiculous in the tour and their doms shredded all favourites bar evans and nibali on the first climb. the three spaniards in the vuelta were dodgy but at least they all had previous in grand tours does anyone believe that the tour was clean then teams remembered how to dope for the vuelta? frank schleck was doping and he couldn't keep up. there were major alarm bells around the leinders 4 and voeckler in france imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 uk postal were ridiculous in the tour and their doms shredded all favourites bar evans and nibali on the first climb. the three spaniards in the vuelta were dodgy but at least they all had previous in grand tours All of the GC guys in the tour had previous in grand tours. The bookies odds before the start were very similar to the actual results, nobody really surprised with their form. "All the favourites bar Evans and Nibali"? There weren't any other favourites coming into the race. I'm not claiming it was a clean race, but the results weren't really surprising and there were no Ricco or Schumacher type performances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 All of the GC guys in the tour had previous in grand tours. The bookies odds before the start were very similar to the actual results, nobody really surprised with their form. "All the favourites bar Evans and Nibali"? There weren't any other favourites coming into the race. I'm not claiming it was a clean race, but the results weren't really surprising and there were no Ricco or Schumacher type performances. micheal rogers dropped sam sanchez, dennis menchov, frank schleck, krueziger, valverde and many other strong climbers. sky got rid of him because he is an ex-doper but we're supposed to believe he was clean during his best ever performance? no chance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) Rabobank and inparticular Boogerd & Luttenberger facing more allegations. Not exactly groundbreaking stuff, but Sky looking all the more ridiculous for employing Lienders. http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/second-witness-comes-forward-on-rabobank-doping Edited January 4, 2013 by Desert Nomad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myshkin Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 Honestly not sure who you're referring to. None of the top ten were particularly surprising, or could be called performance spikes. The Vuelta this year looked a lot dirtier than the Tour. I didn't say I was surprised. Indeed, having seen all the early season races the performance of team Sky was exactly what I was expecting. The only surprise was that Michael Rodgers didn't do better in the time trials........... A performance spike to me is when a rider that has won nothing significant in the first eight or nine years of his career wins everything after shedding a fifth of his body weight and his team employ Gert Leinders. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 So why do people think Wiggins might be doping? Because he came from track cycling without a real road background, works with a previously dodgy doctor and the consistency of his team, similar to the way US Postal dominated for Armstrong? I'm not trying to say anything, I'm geniunely asking. I'm a cycling fan but don't know as much as others on here, I'm interested to find out why people think this. Does the biological passport system not eliminate a great deal of the blood doping? I suppose it's the unknown unknowns, to pull a Rumsfeld - if cyclists are using brand new drugs that the testers and public don't know about how can you test for them? I got David Millar's book for Christmas, it's a good read. I'm amazed how much he seemed to get pissed while being a professional cyclist. The parts about doping and his description of how it felt to be a doper were interesting as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) So why do people think Wiggins might be doping? Because he came from track cycling without a real road background, works with a previously dodgy doctor and the consistency of his team, similar to the way US Postal dominated for Armstrong? I'm not trying to say anything, I'm geniunely asking. I'm a cycling fan but don't know as much as others on here, I'm interested to find out why people think this. Does the biological passport system not eliminate a great deal of the blood doping? I suppose it's the unknown unknowns, to pull a Rumsfeld - if cyclists are using brand new drugs that the testers and public don't know about how can you test for them? wiggins finished 4th in 2009 (upgraded to 4th) right in the middle of some dirty names: contador, the schlecks, armstrong and kloden. competing with riders who were doping indicates doping. sky have made a lot of noise about being anti doping but when you look into it their zero tolerance policy has been a load of pish and they have employed many people with doping pasts. if i knew these guys had doping pasts (leinders, barry, rogers, yates, julich) then i find it hard to believe that brailsford didn't. there is also the issue of the sky riders featuring highly on the 2010 suspicion list. up until this year wiggins hadn't won any major stage races or major time trials. this year he won every stage race he entered and every major time trial he entered. this is suspicious enough without froome also coming from nowhere to be a top climber and timetrialist and rogers being in the form of his life (arguably as good as when he was doping) the fact that they did with whilst working with the doctor who doped up michael rasmussen creates even more suspicion. the testing no matter what you read in the summer is far from fail safe. testing no doubt shapes doping behaviour but it hasn't eradicated it, even the blindest fan could see that at the vuelta. micheal ashenden has conducted experiments where he's doped test athletes with epo and they have still been able to stay inside the limits of the passport and as you say there are other forms of doping which we know very little about such as AICAR and newer substances. so we have (i) high placing in the dirty 2009 tour (ii) dishonesty from team sky concerning doping (iii) massive jump in relative ability (iiii) managing to lose weight but increase power (v) suspicious performance of team mates (vi) working with doping doctor (vii) fallibilty of testing system and corruption of uci. i'd also mention wiggins erratic public comments during the year. Edited January 4, 2013 by T_S_A_R 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 up until this year wiggins hadn't won any major stage races or major time trials. this year he won every stage race he entered and every major time trial he entered. this is suspicious enough without froome also coming from nowhere to be a top climber and timetrialist and rogers being in the form of his life (arguably as good as when he was doping) the fact that they did with whilst working with the doctor who doped up michael rasmussen creates even more suspicion. He won time trials at the Giro and the Dauphine Libere prior to this season and also finished on the podium in the Vuelta and the World Time Trial championships. Obviously, he's made a big improvement this season though. Isn't there a case for saying that he's developed as a road cyclist and also that he's getting a better team around him? I was going to say that Froome is young so could have made a breakthrough based on developing but he's 27, which I didn't know. How much influence does the team doctor have on doping? Obviously they are in a prime place for implementing a doping programme but riders can dope themselves - from what he wrote in his book David Millar got EPO from a team-mate who bought it off a dodgy doctor in Italy. I also wikipedia'd Rasmussan and he seems to have been doping from when he was a mountain biker. Having said that I also looked up Rabobank and from what has come out about them it would be pretty amazing if the team doctor didn't know there was widespread doping. Rasmussen bought himself a blood replacement product for cows as well from his wiki page Mooo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 He won time trials at the Giro and the Dauphine Libere prior to this season and also finished on the podium in the Vuelta and the World Time Trial championships. Obviously, he's made a big improvement this season though. Isn't there a case for saying that he's developed as a road cyclist and also that he's getting a better team around him? they were over distances of 4km and 8km which are pretty short compared the grand tour TTs. he was miles behind tony martin and cancellara in 2011 in timetrialling but somehow was better than them in 2012 even though they were focusing on the discipline and he was going for yellow in the tour which requires different training. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) they were over distances of 4km and 8km which are pretty short compared the grand tour TTs. he was miles behind tony martin and cancellara in 2011 in timetrialling but somehow was better than them in 2012 even though they were focusing on the discipline and he was going for yellow in the tour which requires different training. He came second in the 2011 World championships in road time trials, beating Cancellara. I don't have the knowledge to say he is or isn't doping. If he is doping then the impact it will have on the sport is massive, it'll destroy it, certainly in this country. I work with a woman who is a big cycling fan and she didn't watch the Vuelta because Contador was the favourite coming back from his ban - imagine how casual or new fans will view things if Wiggins is caught. I really hope he isn't. I do think that Team Sky's anti-doping stance is slowly being exposed for being more about talk than anything else. From what we discovered in the Armstrong case and others there are few who haven't been touched with doping in the sport and trying to quickly build a team with no tolerance to any former dopers just isn't/wasn't realistic. The only way to really do it would be to start with young riders and with backroom staff entirely unconnected to the sport, an approach which would mean years of slog without big wins and that's not attractive to sponsors. Vaughters approach seems much better Edited to add - South African mountain biker killed in car crash Edited January 4, 2013 by ICTChris 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 He came second in the 2011 World championships in road time trials, beating Cancellara. cancellara crashed when he was well ahead of him in the splits. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 2014 Giro to start in Belfast? With the Tour starting in Yorkshire, it`ll be fantastic for British cycling fans, sadly nothing in Scotland! http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/11/belfast-2014-giro-ditalia?CMP=twt_gu 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 2014 Giro to start in Belfast? With the Tour starting in Yorkshire, it`ll be fantastic for British cycling fans, sadly nothing in Scotland! http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/11/belfast-2014-giro-ditalia?CMP=twt_gu I might go across for that. Review of the Tour De France on Eurosport now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnash Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (i) high placing in the dirty 2009 tour (iii) massive jump in relative ability So if he was doping in 2009, why has there been such a big jump in ability in 2012? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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