Breaking Decency Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I'm posting in the wrong place AGAIN. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breaking Decency Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Don't drink discounted 63p beer all night guys, you end up like me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
die hard doonhamer Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Don't drink discounted 63p beer all night guys, you end up like me. Working abroad? Sounds like a good deal to me! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breaking Decency Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 It took me nearly an hour to get home because I got the tram in the wrong direction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
die hard doonhamer Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 It took me nearly an hour to get home because I got the tram in the wrong direction. Yes, and what the hell has that got to do with uni? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breaking Decency Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Yes, and what the hell has that got to do with uni? Follow the path you think is right- even if it's not the best choice. I originally applied for Accounting but changed when I realised it was shite. Edited June 17, 2009 by Řehoř 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
die hard doonhamer Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Follow the path you think is right- even if it's not the best choice. I originally applied for Accounting but changed when I realised it was shite. Ah ok. I knocked back an unconditional at Edinburgh to do maths (best uni for maths in Scotland) because I wanted the finance bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breaking Decency Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Ah ok. I knocked back an unconditional at Edinburgh to do maths (best uni for maths in Scotland) because I wanted the finance bit. Well, good for you sir! I ended up doing Computer Science. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Stud Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 It is very difficult to take the league tables at face value because they cover so much- and a lot of it utter pish. I mentioned before that I did indeed go to Paisley- indeed my grades were such that I could have done the course at Glasgow or Edinburgh too if I wanted too. I actually went to Paisley as it offered a course were I combined it with real life experience. Indeed I spent around 18 months working during my course in my profession- an apprenticeship if you will (something I think you advocate Stuart!). It was great as I was able to apply skills learned in real life to the university environment. I still have my job to date- and at day one after graduation could walk in and do the work- no training- left on my own. Graduates out of other places with little experience have to adapt and 're-learn the way work does it'. In the end, my course was independantly assessed for it's quality by our professional body, I ended up being on that panel when I was there and Paisley did far better than a lot of other universities for that degree. Don't get me wrong there is a lot of shite that goes on in Paisley but the same is true for all universities- (perhaps Glasgow it is your daddies boys not bothering their arse instead of guy from scheme!). To quote Margaret Montford 'perhaps Edinburgh isn't what it used to be?'. Problem is you can't scratch the surface- you have to go deeper to evaluate it. I have my own prejudices too, even if I can have a laugh with the folk who have a go at Paisley. I joke at some of the 'made up degrees to keep folk off the dole'. Even the lecturers at the university had a laugh at the guy who asked if this class was 'sports science with psychology'. In the end though your probably best not scrapping the universities in total, but rather the degrees which don't offer a great deal. But ultimately you have to close universities too. Look, lets say I run a hotel with 200 rooms. I know I have staff and facilities to comfortably cope with 100 room occupancy but it's a business and I want as much money as possible, so I'll keep filling the rooms even though it will mean the standard of service deminishes for each person staying at the hotel. Same is true of universities. If you have one that has a capacity of 2,000 they are going to want to fill it so they can get their maximum endowment from the state. Have 200 universities all with a capacity of 2,000 and you've got all of them wanting to fill it to maximise their endowment. That's where we are right now. 430,000 students - all of whom aren't getting the education they need because everywhere is running to capacity to maximise their earnings. And at the end of the day the taxpayer is getting a really poor product for it's £161bn per annum. Ofcourse you are right - do away with the pointless degree's and we start to improve things, but it doesn't really get better until we cut student places right down, lose the worst of the lecturers, and close the poorest performing universities. What we are then left with should be centres of excellence, well funded, well equipped and with big wages that might attract successful people from industry instead of the also rans, to run the courses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Stud Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Well it's you calling me a lazy b*****d, that's what it is I was a student, I now work. In a few weeks I will start a job with a starting wage of £23,000 per annum. I will pay my student loan back and I will contribute more to the economy, both in skills and taxes, from having gained my degree than I would without it. I'm not in the minority, before you start. Do you really think so Savo? In my drawer at work I've got a pile of CV's from people applying for jobs in here. I'm looking at the top three in the bundle which aren't in any order. 3rd year Improver currently working as an apprentice lift engineer - earning £29,000 per annum, aged 22. 3rd year apprentice currently at a construction company on a sponsored apprenticeship - earning £24,000 with a company car, aged 19. 4th year HVAC controls apprentice, aged 20, earning £29,000 and gets a car lease allowance. The lift engineer dropped out of Uni, the other two started work straight from school. All three of them are working in area's where the UK has a large skills shortage. They'll be paying more tax than you, and they'll probably have more desirable skills than you but they don't have the same bit of paper. University isn't the only option open to school leavers, but for some reason it's being touted as the only option. Sadly most of those students are being led down the wrong path. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SavotheGreat Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Do you really think so Savo? In my drawer at work I've got a pile of CV's from people applying for jobs in here. I'm looking at the top three in the bundle which aren't in any order. 3rd year Improver currently working as an apprentice lift engineer - earning £29,000 per annum, aged 22. 3rd year apprentice currently at a construction company on a sponsored apprenticeship - earning £24,000 with a company car, aged 19. 4th year HVAC controls apprentice, aged 20, earning £29,000 and gets a car lease allowance. The lift engineer dropped out of Uni, the other two started work straight from school. All three of them are working in area's where the UK has a large skills shortage. They'll be paying more tax than you, and they'll probably have more desirable skills than you but they don't have the same bit of paper. University isn't the only option open to school leavers, but for some reason it's being touted as the only option. Sadly most of those students are being led down the wrong path. Stuart, are you really making the argument that professionals are not the highest paid segment of the workforce in the UK? Really? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Stud Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Stuart, are you really making the argument that professionals are not the highest paid segment of the workforce in the UK? Really? This Is Money - League Table shows a table of average earnings in 2008. Directors and company owners are obviously well paid, but if you look at the table an Electrical Engineer (who doesn't need a degree) earns more that your average Accountant (who does). Teachers, who need a degree, earn up to £16,000 per annum less than Train Drivers - who don't. A Sales Rep - who doesn't need a degree - earns more than a Science Researcher - who does. There are many, many, many more examples. According to various Scotland Rich lists the richest man in Scotland today is Jim McColl, a former apprentice at Weir Pumps. Sir Arnold Clark didn't go to University. And Sir Tom Farmer didn't even finish secondary school. At £23,000 you are some £2,000 short of the National Average Scottish wage and a long, long way short of making a larger contribution to the country either in tax, or skills, than many of your contemporaries who have gone into trades. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SavotheGreat Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) This Is Money - League Table shows a table of average earnings in 2008. Directors and company owners are obviously well paid, but if you look at the table an Electrical Engineer (who doesn't need a degree) earns more that your average Accountant (who does). Teachers, who need a degree, earn up to £16,000 per annum less than Train Drivers - who don't. A Sales Rep - who doesn't need a degree - earns more than a Science Researcher - who does. There are many, many, many more examples. According to various Scotland Rich lists the richest man in Scotland today is Jim McColl, a former apprentice at Weir Pumps. Sir Arnold Clark didn't go to University. And Sir Tom Farmer didn't even finish secondary school. At £23,000 you are some £2,000 short of the National Average Scottish wage and a long, long way short of making a larger contribution to the country either in tax, or skills, than many of your contemporaries who have gone into trades. So far. I have no doubt I will be earning a great deal more than what I will be in a few weeks 10 years from now. Basically, Stuart, what a lot of nonsense. Whatever way you spin it there is more potential for earning a higher wage with a University degree. Sure, you can earn a decent amount of money specialising in a trade but when it comes to income potential, the highest earners are people who have gone to University. I know nothing about Electrical Engineering but I would imagine that a great number of Electrical Engineers have obtained a degree from a University. As for your comparisons, I too can make selective comparisons to prove a point, but the truth is I don't need to because it's clear as day that the professional degree holder in this country has more earning POTENTIAL than the person without a degree. Doctors are on £81,000. Senior Managers are on...well, pick a number. £100k +. As for teachers, I'm interested in your source (it's an all too easy and selective comparison). The average headteacher earns a decent sum of money. It depends on where you teach. Good luck earning these sums through specialising in a trade. I don't dispute that sticking with a trade can be financially rewarding. But your dismay of all things students puts me off debating this issue with you much further. There's very little point when your mind is so closed to the benefits of higher education. Edited June 17, 2009 by SavotheGreat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broccoli Dog Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 stuart, if your son decided to go and do an arts degree would you disown him? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Sounds sexy. You staying in halls, or elsewhere? Think I might go for the shared flats - I really enjoyed the halls the first time round, but I'd be about four years older than most people that I'd be living with if I was to go there now probably. It might not be a problem most of the time, I get along with most people that I meet (which might seem difficult to believe given my posts on here), but I couldn't imagine living with people that much younger all the time. Probably a ridiculous question, but I am not all that familiar with University age ranges. Are you at all concerned about going to University at the age of 22 and after having dropped out once? I've never been to University, but I did leave higher education when I was 18 and have been working ever since. I am about to turn 22 and am hoping to get back into it. I was a bit worried about it at first, it seems like a bit of a strange age to go in that I'll be a fair bit older and more grown up than most of the students but still a bit younger than the rest of the mature students. Funnily enough, since I've decided to go back I've actually met a few people around my age who're doing the same, so it might not be as bad as I imagined. Part of me regrets not sticking in first time round, but I think that I've grown up a lot and got a lot more life experience this way than I would've if I'd stayed at uni, so I wouldn't change it if I had the chance. Being a bit more grown up now than I was then, I think that it might be better in a way, as I'll be a lot harder working now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 This Is Money - League Table shows a table of average earnings in 2008. Directors and company owners are obviously well paid, but if you look at the table an Electrical Engineer (who doesn't need a degree) earns more that your average Accountant (who does). Teachers, who need a degree, earn up to £16,000 per annum less than Train Drivers - who don't. A Sales Rep - who doesn't need a degree - earns more than a Science Researcher - who does. There are many, many, many more examples. According to various Scotland Rich lists the richest man in Scotland today is Jim McColl, a former apprentice at Weir Pumps. Sir Arnold Clark didn't go to University. And Sir Tom Farmer didn't even finish secondary school. At £23,000 you are some £2,000 short of the National Average Scottish wage and a long, long way short of making a larger contribution to the country either in tax, or skills, than many of your contemporaries who have gone into trades. Stuart, that table makes a distinction between Electricl engineers (who need a degree) and electricians (of sdeveral grades, fitters, car electricians etc) The degree qualified engineer makes: £37,916. The electrician makes: £26,850 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Stud Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 So far. I have no doubt I will be earning a great deal more than what I will be in a few weeks 10 years from now. Basically, Stuart, what a lot of nonsense. Whatever way you spin it there is more potential for earning a higher wage with a University degree. Sure, you can earn a decent amount of money specialising in a trade but when it comes to income potential, the highest earners are people who have gone to University. I know nothing about Electrical Engineering but I would imagine that a great number of Electrical Engineers have obtained a degree from a University. As for your comparisons, I too can make selective comparisons to prove a point, but the truth is I don't need to because it's clear as day that the professional degree holder in this country has more earning POTENTIAL than the person without a degree. Doctors are on £81,000. Senior Managers are on...well, pick a number. £100k +. As for teachers, I'm interested in your source (it's an all too easy and selective comparison). The average headteacher earns a decent sum of money. It depends on where you teach. Good luck earning these sums through specialising in a trade. I don't dispute that sticking with a trade can be financially rewarding. But your dismay of all things students puts me off debating this issue with you much further. There's very little point when your mind is so closed to the benefits of higher education. Savo, I provided the source in my post. Teachers earn less than train drivers. Coal Miners earn more than Biochemists, and dancers earn more than dentists. It's all in that article - just have a read. I'd be interested to find out if it is the education industry that is telling kids they need a degree to earn more money and I'd be interested to find out why someone who is usually a rational thinking, like yourself, would blindly believe that information despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Think about it Savo, 430,000 students in the system in 2008/9. If all of them graduate with degree's where do you think the jobs are that will mean they all get above average earnings? You don't tell me what line of work it is you are entering into but £23,000 is well below the UK national average earnings figure, and if that's the best you could command after 3 years at university I think it's a sound indicator that degree's are not the holy grail you have been led to believe. stuart, if your son decided to go and do an arts degree would you disown him? No, but by the same token I would refuse to fund such an obvious waste of money. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Law Stud Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Stuart, that table makes a distinction between Electricl engineers (who need a degree) and electricians (of sdeveral grades, fitters, car electricians etc)The degree qualified engineer makes: £37,916. The electrician makes: £26,850 It also highlights that coal miners, train drivers, police officers and dancers command higher earnings than architects, teachers, biochemists and vets. It clearly indicates that there as many professions out there where you can earn more without the need for a degree than you will do having obtained a degree. It pretty clearly debunks the argument that you need a degree to make loads of money. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Hahn Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I graduated from Edinburgh Accounting and Economics 3 years ago. My nephew is going to Edinburgh to do the same course this year. Anyone else? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) It also highlights that coal miners, train drivers, police officers and dancers command higher earnings than architects, teachers, biochemists and vets. It clearly indicates that there as many professions out there where you can earn more without the need for a degree than you will do having obtained a degree. It pretty clearly debunks the argument that you need a degree to make loads of money. Who the hell is making that argument like? My argument has always been that their are certain jobs for which you need a degree to do them, not that you waould make a lot of money doing them. FWIW, the money someone makes in a certain job is directly related to the market at the time, if their is a significant skills gaps in 'the trades' such as plumbing, then there will be a lot of money for those few select plumbers that do exist, over time however the market compensates and more plumbers are trianed, each trying to get in on the big money jobs, eventually forcing overheads such as wages down. Edited June 17, 2009 by renton 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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