The New Raith Rovers Thread

[Ro Sham Bo]

2 hours ago, R.R.FC said:

I genuinely don’t think he has been that bad but I accept I have always been more of a fan of Davo than most. The games he played before his injury were the wins over East Fife, QOS and Arbroath then the draw at Dundee and defeat at Tynecastle. He was reasonably solid in most of those.

He started last season terribly but after Steven Anderson signed he was much improved. Even when Anderson was out injured he continued to play well but that may just have been me.

I think he’ll retire at the end of the season and he’s not good enough to be a regular starter for a Championship play off contender but I don’t think he’s quite as bad as made out but I accept I am very much in the minority there.

As @Paco mentioned yesterday, our defensive issues aren’t solely down to our centre backs and it would be naive to think if we replaced Bene/Davo we would suddenly stop losing goals although it may help. We all love how many goals we score this season with 2 attack minded wide players and full backs who bomb forward but the consequence of that is it often leaves us exposed defensively particularly when we don’t have the midfield protection of Hendry and Matthews.

It is a risk/reward situation and it is worth persevering with because when we are on form, we are really enjoyable to watch but we will never be the most defensively solid team in the league. An ideal centre half for this Rovers team would be good on the ball, with great pace and good positional sense to cover the full back areas and physically strong because we lack that in other areas of the pitch. Unfortunately, centre backs with those attributes, willing to play in the Scottish Championship and the Rovers are very rare.

TL;DR version - I don’t think Bene/Davo are as bad as made out, we could probably do better but the way we play will always leave us open and exposed to conceding goals.

Agree with all of this. Long term Benedictus is still worth keeping I believe. 

[Beachbum]

4 minutes ago, Ro Sham Bo said:

Agree with all of this. Long term Benedictus is still worth keeping I believe. 

Benedictus has not been the same since his injury and to think of him in terms of long term is not the answer. Davo and Bene need replaced if we want to move forward.

[Ro Sham Bo]

32 minutes ago, Beachbum said:

Benedictus has not been the same since his injury and to think of him in terms of long term is not the answer. Davo and Bene need replaced if we want to move forward.

I think he's been generally fine since Anderson was signed. 

I think we need 4 centre backs in the squad, 3 fighting for the 2 places and a Dave McKay type breaking through. 

I don't see why Bene can't be one of those. 

[Skyline Drifter]

4 hours ago, RRFC1989 said:

Whilst I was delighted to see Gullan come back, I would have preferred a CB. The shutdown on league’s 1 and 2 hasn’t helped as i’d of hoped we could have sent 1 or 2 out on loan to support bringing in a better defender.

 

4 hours ago, CALDERON said:

King is the strange signing in hindsight.  Gullan and Kennedy are not the types of players that we can turn down, however King was something of a luxury signing to add a bit of strength and depth.  If one area needed strength and depth, its the area of the pitch that has been costing us goals and points on a relatively consistent basis in the past 4 years.  

The thing is, it's easy to identify a weakness, it's not so easy to actually do anything about it. I've noted before that in contrast to most years when finding a decent striker or creative player was like hens teeth, this year there's been a real lack of defenders in the sort of bottom end full time market. It's been true all season and most of the clubs in the division have obvious weaknesses in the area.

Dunfermline were smart and got the likes of Watson signed up early. Dundee have been able to go out and recruit high earners like Ashcroft and Fontaine though their fans are still very critical of the defence and they've now recruited a centre back from Tottenham. Yourselves took a punt on Musonda from down South and are persevering with the Benedictus / Davidson pairing. You also gave Tumilty a 2 year deal to tempt him from Morton. A policy Ayr also adopted to tempt Baird away from Morton. Morton have been relatively solid at the back at least but their fans aren't happy with McLean / McGinty and Ledger could barely get a game for us last year. Ayr haven't been able to get a solid defence all season and have now recruited Nbanda from down South to try to solve it. Inverness have relied on what was left of last year's back line and we had to take a series of punts on Buchanan from Falkirk, the unknown Obileye from down South, a teenage left back from Rangers with no first team experience at all and converting Wullie Gibson to a right back (pretty successfully). We managed to slightly address by adding Breen in the window but defenders, and particularly centre backs, are is seriously short supply this year. There are far more decent strikers at this level at the moment than there are centre backs.  I think most full time clubs in the division have been trying to find one. 

Oddly both part time sides are fairly well served for centre backs. Might be the strongest areas of their sides.

3 hours ago, R.R.FC said:

I genuinely don’t think he has been that bad but I accept I have always been more of a fan of Davo than most. The games he played before his injury were the wins over East Fife, QOS and Arbroath then the draw at Dundee and defeat at Tynecastle. He was reasonably solid in most of those.

To be fair you defended atrociously in the early season game against us. You got away with it because we were even worse, MacDonald had a great game and we missed a series of chances. No issues with Raith deserving the win but it could easily have been 6-5.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[Scottydog]

4 hours ago, CALDERON said:

King is the strange signing in hindsight.  Gullan and Kennedy are not the types of players that we can turn down, however King was something of a luxury signing to add a bit of strength and depth.  If one area needed strength and depth, its the area of the pitch that has been costing us goals and points on a relatively consistent basis in the past 4 years.  

If you consider that John McG said Ross Matthews has a niggling injury that may be more problematic and that Hendry and Tait have been a wee bit off the boil  then maybe it's not that strange that they decided to bring in a central midfielder to not only cover Matthews (if he proves to be out  longer than expected) but give competition to all our midfielders who might think they are shoe-ins. King can also play out wide so he's cover for the wing after the loss of Ethan Ross.

I hope Timmy improves as he's not looking like much of an upgrade on what we have, as mentioned elsewhere I'd have preferred a centre half in.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Scottydog

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

5 minutes ago, Scottydog said:

I hope Timmy improves

I hope he stays on his feet as his style of play sitting on his arse is not good.

[R.R.FC]

22 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

To be fair you defended atrociously in the early season game against us. You got away with it because we were even worse, MacDonald had a great game and we missed a series of chances. No issues with Raith deserving the win but it could easily have been 6-5.

My point was referring more to Davidson individually rather than the team as a whole. You may be correct, Davidson himself was caught on the ball for a Dobbie chance but aside from that I don’t recall him individually being terrible. The penalty we gave away was poor too but from memory that was Tumilty?

I’ve not watched it back but my recollection of the game was that aside from the 2 incidents above, most of QOS chances came from set pieces. You were throwing numbers into the box to get back into the game and created a number of chances from corners and long throws and second phases from these.

We absolutely didn’t defend them well but it’s not in line with where we’ve shown our defensive vulnerabilities since. We have been okay defending set pieces for the most part.

Also my memory of Davidson being solid may have been skewed at the time by the fact he was up against Dobbie and I was possibly still viewing Dobbie as the player he was (fully expecting him to rip us to shreds again) rather than the player he is now.

But I stand by my comment that Davidson was reasonably solid in most of those games. I’m not claiming he has been outstanding, we had shaky moments in most of those games but he never looked a liability which is what he was on Wednesday night. With a bit of match sharpness he still represents a better option than Mendy and comfortably so.

[Skyline Drifter]

7 minutes ago, R.R.FC said:

My point was referring more to Davidson individually rather than the team as a whole. You may be correct, Davidson himself was caught on the ball for a Dobbie chance but aside from that I don’t recall him individually being terrible. The penalty we gave away was poor too but from memory that was Tumilty?

I’ve not watched it back but my recollection of the game was that aside from the 2 incidents above, most of QOS chances came from set pieces. You were throwing numbers into the box to get back into the game and created a number of chances from corners and long throws and second phases from these.

We absolutely didn’t defend them well but it’s not in line with where we’ve shown our defensive vulnerabilities since. We have been okay defending set pieces for the most part.

Also my memory of Davidson being solid may have been skewed at the time by the fact he was up against Dobbie and I was possibly still viewing Dobbie as the player he was (fully expecting him to rip us to shreds again) rather than the player he is now.

But I stand by my comment that Davidson was reasonably solid in most of those games. I’m not claiming he has been outstanding, we had shaky moments in most of those games but he never looked a liability which is what he was on Wednesday night. With a bit of match sharpness he still represents a better option than Mendy and comfortably so.

Yeah, I can't claim to have any certainty about whether Davidson individually did ok or not. I've always quite liked him as a defender but I can't recall how much was on him that day. "Atrociously" was probably a bit strong for your side to be fair also. You defended "poorly". We defended "atrociously". It was by miles our worst defensive showing of the season. Hearts got 6 against us but a couple of them were worldies and it was basically attack v defence for 90 mins that one. The Raith one wasn't, we just kept shooting ourselves in the foot with at least three goals that were absolute horror shows.

Anyway, it's not about us, sorry. I was more making the point that whilst Davidson may or may not have done ok in that game, Raith as a whole were defensively poor in it and I wouldn't be using his presence in that match as evidence that he's capable of influencing a good showing.

[TxRover]

7 hours ago, CALDERON said:

King is the strange signing in hindsight.  Gullan and Kennedy are not the types of players that we can turn down, however King was something of a luxury signing to add a bit of strength and depth.  If one area needed strength and depth, its the area of the pitch that has been costing us goals and points on a relatively consistent basis in the past 4 years.  

If he was a defensive mid it would make more sense.

6 hours ago, R.R.FC said:

I genuinely don’t think he has been that bad but I accept I have always been more of a fan of Davo than most. The games he played before his injury were the wins over East Fife, QOS and Arbroath then the draw at Dundee and defeat at Tynecastle. He was reasonably solid in most of those.

He started last season terribly but after Steven Anderson signed he was much improved. Even when Anderson was out injured he continued to play well but that may just have been me.

I think he’ll retire at the end of the season and he’s not good enough to be a regular starter for a Championship play off contender but I don’t think he’s quite as bad as made out but I accept I am very much in the minority there.

As @Paco mentioned yesterday, our defensive issues aren’t solely down to our centre backs and it would be naive to think if we replaced Bene/Davo we would suddenly stop losing goals although it may help. We all love how many goals we score this season with 2 attack minded wide players and full backs who bomb forward but the consequence of that is it often leaves us exposed defensively particularly when we don’t have the midfield protection of Hendry and Matthews.

It is a risk/reward situation and it is worth persevering with because when we are on form, we are really enjoyable to watch but we will never be the most defensively solid team in the league. An ideal centre half for this Rovers team would be good on the ball, with great pace and good positional sense to cover the full back areas and physically strong because we lack that in other areas of the pitch. Unfortunately, centre backs with those attributes, willing to play in the Scottish Championship and the Rovers are very rare.

TL;DR version - I don’t think Bene/Davo are as bad as made out, we could probably do better but the way we play will always leave us open and exposed to conceding goals.

Here’s the reality...you specify good on the ball, great pace and good positional sense:

McKay, before the injury, would have been about a 6/6/7 or so...but that’s not playing in the Championship

Davo about a 7/2/7 until someone winds him up.

Bene about an 8/4/6 and similar.

Musonda, until yesterday, a 8/7/8

Mendy seems about a 5/9/4

Thats our CB ranks...if Mendy can learn more positional play and tighten up the occasional misplay, he’s usable, if not a starter...Davo is finished at this level, Bene is nearly so....McKay we’ll have to see if we elect to re-sign him, and Frankie we’ll see if he gets poached.

[R.R.FC]

58 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Thats our CB ranks...if Mendy can learn more positional play and tighten up the occasional misplay, he’s usable, if not a starter...Davo is finished at this level, Bene is nearly so....McKay we’ll have to see if we elect to re-sign him, and Frankie we’ll see if he gets poached.

Mendy hasn’t learned positional play in the year and a half he has been here so I don’t see it as something that is suddenly going to come in the last few months of the season. I also think you are seriously overestimating his pace.

We are in running for a promotion play off place we can’t risk playing someone that is nowhere near good enough on the chance they might eventually be okay. It’s not like he is a 17 year old kid with plenty time to develop. You can argue Davo is also nowhere near good enough now but in my opinion he remains a much better option than Mendy and I don’t think it’s even close.

Your faith in Mendy is to be admired but I feel it is heavily misplaced. However, you are entitled to your opinion. I don’t think either of us are likely to change our mind. I would love nothing more than him to be a success and prove you right, he seems like a cracking guy. I just don’t see it.

Edited February 5, 2021 by R.R.FC

[grumswall]

Mendy undoubtedly has the physical attributes to succeed. He lacks the positional awareness and general mental attributes that go with that though. At 27 it's unlikely he's going to learn that side of the game to an adequate level. If we could combine him and davo we'd have a very good cb on our hands. Davo is still a far better option than mendy is though. Davo was making similar mistakes last season, that he won't get away with in the championship. I don't bash him because I don't like him, I back every player in a rovers top. He just isn't actually good enough for this level anymore. Mendy never will be good enough for this level either unfortunately.

Paco summed it up pretty nicely. We're always going to leave gaps at the back. What I'd expect from the two cbs Is being able to actually hold a line and not get flat footed. That didn't happen against the pars. Musonda and davo both had pretty poor games. When both your cbs are playing bad with the way we play, it's always going to go the way it did. It didn't help that dunfermline nullified the wide players meaning we didn't have that attacking threat. We really badly missed Matthews especially for his dig in there as well.

[TxRover]

4 hours ago, R.R.FC said:

Mendy hasn’t learned positional play in the year and a half he has been here so I don’t see it as something that is suddenly going to come in the last few months of the season. I also think you are seriously overestimating his pace.

We are in running for a promotion play off place we can’t risk playing someone that is nowhere near good enough on the chance they might eventually be okay. It’s not like he is a 17 year old kid with plenty time to develop. You can argue Davo is also nowhere near good enough now but in my opinion he remains a much better option than Mendy and I don’t think it’s even close.

Your faith in Mendy is to be admired but I feel it is heavily misplaced. However, you are entitled to your opinion. I don’t think either of us are likely to change our mind. I would love nothing more than him to be a success and prove you right, he seems like a cracking guy. I just don’t see it.

I don’t disagree that Mendy hasn’t showed the development necessary in his time here. I honestly don’t think he will improve enough for the Championship, unfortunately, but I’m pointing out wha5 would be necessary.

Davo is now a dollar short and a day late too often, I don’t agree.

3 hours ago, grumswall said:

Mendy undoubtedly has the physical attributes to succeed. He lacks the positional awareness and general mental attributes that go with that though. At 27 it's unlikely he's going to learn that side of the game to an adequate level. If we could combine him and davo we'd have a very good cb on our hands. Davo is still a far better option than mendy is though. Davo was making similar mistakes last season, that he won't get away with in the championship. I don't bash him because I don't like him, I back every player in a rovers top. He just isn't actually good enough for this level anymore. Mendy never will be good enough for this level either unfortunately.

Paco summed it up pretty nicely. We're always going to leave gaps at the back. What I'd expect from the two cbs Is being able to actually hold a line and not get flat footed. That didn't happen against the pars. Musonda and davo both had pretty poor games. When both your cbs are playing bad with the way we play, it's always going to go the way it did. It didn't help that dunfermline nullified the wide players meaning we didn't have that attacking threat. We really badly missed Matthews especially for his dig in there as well.

Absolutely agree on Davo and am unfortunately in agreement on Mendy now...but he’s still a better choice than Davo to pair with Frankie, but I would rate Bene over Mendy. Note that I am in no way diminishing Davo’s great service to the club.

[grumswall]

Bene is better than davo, who is better than mendy imo. I'm not diminishing Davos contribution to the club by saying I don't rate him that highly these days. He's undoubtedly made a good contribution in his time at the club. If the time comes that he gets the testimonial he craved at one time, I'll most likely be there.

[TxRover]

18 hours ago, grumswall said:

Bene is better than davo, who is better than mendy imo. I'm not diminishing Davos contribution to the club by saying I don't rate him that highly these days. He's undoubtedly made a good contribution in his time at the club. If the time comes that he gets the testimonial he craved at one time, I'll most likely be there.

Don't think any would not attend, but there's always one in a crowd.

Three CB ruled today, but Morton's feeble attack helped a lot. Having KMac and Tumilty a little freer seems an upside, but I'd want to see it versus a quality attacking line first.

[RaithRyan]

[therollorose]

Is Duku injured or just out of favour? Seems a bit odd that he’s not getting a game just now especially as Abraham’s not exactly hit the ground running. 

[Beastie Russell]

Perhaps Duku was leaving in the window but got Covid and couldn’t go, and has taken the hump

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, therollorose said:

Is Duku injured or just out of favour? Seems a bit odd that he’s not getting a game just now especially as Abraham’s not exactly hit the ground running. 

It struck me that Duku’s scoring was mainly poaching rather than pure striker play. His first touch has been a bit inconsistent, and that might result in some of the others being more favored now that they are getting health. He’s a good pickup for a team that plays two up top or has a strong secondary striker, but he doesn’t fit neatly into JMcG favored playing style. We really favor a more skilled striker, and Abraham is already showing better ball skills than Duku. Now, with Vaughan back, Duku could be a better fit, but his condition is, as noted, unknown,

[Ro Sham Bo]

I think Duku is finished with us. Not sure what has gone on but he's clearly third choice forward now. 

 

[Ro Sham Bo]

30 minutes ago, TxRover said:

It struck me that Duku’s scoring was mainly poaching rather than pure striker play. His first touch has been a bit inconsistent, and that might result in some of the others being more favored now that they are getting health. He’s a good pickup for a team that plays two up top or has a strong secondary striker, but he doesn’t fit neatly into JMcG favored playing style. We really favor a more skilled striker, and Abraham is already showing better ball skills than Duku. Now, with Vaughan back, Duku could be a better fit, but his condition is, as noted, unknown,

I'm sorry, but Abraham looks like he's only still in the game because he's got a famous brother.