CALDERON Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 13 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: Well no, whilst I absolutely understand why you did, nobody forced you to answer the petition with your own legal reps. You could have left it to the SPFL and then, in the unlikely event of promotion being reversed, considered whether to take your own legal action at that point. The clubs should never have been individually named by Hearts imo. Cant agree with that. You can favour reconstruction if you like of course but doing so expressly because Ann Budge was threatening legal action is all wrong. Thats as much self interest as anything that went before. Not really meaning we need to pander to Ann Budge. However legal action was always going to happen, and if 2 days of legal action has us with begging bowls out then it's something that should have been thought about. I can't imagine we have gained much friends with our yo yo stance on reconstruction, and now we are having to ask other clubs and their fans to help bail us out. Tough ask at the best of times, never mind now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottydog Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 The difference in crowds between the leagues is negligible for home support it’s the away gate that is the kicker. Our average away gate in the season we were relegated was 900, the following season it was 100. 800 x £10 (average adult/concession) x 18 = £144k, add in loss in hospitality revenue and I reckon the relegation made at least £200k hole in our budget. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Scorpio Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 I’m quite sure we didn’t top up the extra 20% from furlough payments to staff. It was spoken about, but I don’t think it happened. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its not only a game Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Would it have mattered if we had voted for the reconstruction? Every club voted in their self interest. Any other club would have done the same in our position. We aren’t unique here. Actually don’t- agree. You should of done the right thing. Your Chairman said he was in favour and then changed his mind. The implications to you were fairly limited in supporting the request- another 2 teams in the leagues!- the costs of the tribunal may be more than the income sacrificed by bringing in 2 more teams and the time waisted -resulting in lack of preparation for the new season -this may have a detrimental impact on you. Just not a smart decision by your board. For me always thought the fairest solution in a unprecedented time was to allow promotion and forget relegation- we all did that we would not be in this chaos! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Other than the appearance of "not acting in self-interest", we'd still have been in court had we voted for reconstruction because three clubs in the Premier League voted against it. Our stance here made absolutely no difference. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Its not only a game said: Actually don’t- agree. You should of done the right thing. Your Chairman said he was in favour and then changed his mind. The implications to you were fairly limited in supporting the request- another 2 teams in the leagues!- the costs of the tribunal may be more than the income sacrificed by bringing in 2 more teams and the time waisted -resulting in lack of preparation for the new season -this may have a detrimental impact on you. Just not a smart decision by your board. For me always thought the fairest solution in a unprecedented time was to allow promotion and forget relegation- we all did that we would not be in this chaos! Except that in practical terms our voting for reconstruction would've made no difference. It was opposition in the Premier divison that killed it. Rovers voting for it would still have left us in the same position. There is a moral argument that is quite seperate as to us doing "the right thing" and something clearly changed behind the scenes in those weeks that shifted the club position. That's a story we need to hear, but it ultimately wouldn't have made a difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALDERON Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 However, we are in a position now where we are asking for financial help from others. I don't think we've exactly endeared ourselves to others here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellaboz Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, CALDERON said: However, we are in a position now where we are asking for financial help from others. I don't think we've exactly endeared ourselves to others here. Cash flow problem? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its not only a game Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Other than the appearance of "not acting in self-interest", we'd still have been in court had we voted for reconstruction because three clubs in the Premier League voted against it. Our stance here made absolutely no difference. Making no difference and doing the right thing are quite different..... you cant influence others but you can do the right thing. Maybe if more people thought that we would not be in this chaos 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottydog Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 6 minutes ago, Stellaboz said: Cash flow problem? Only if saddled with a hefty 5 figure legal fee or are faced with repaying league prize money which would severely inconvenience if not cripple many a club, yours included. 6 minutes ago, Its not only a game said: Making no difference and doing the right thing are quite different..... you cant influence others but you can do the right thing. Maybe if more people thought that we would not be in this chaos So using that reasoning did 81% of all those league member also NOT do the right thing? I wanted reconstruction for bigger leagues, but not on a relatively temporary basis that would at some none too distant point potentially be the death knell of my club, I'm guessing most of that 81% felt the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirJimmyofNic Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 This doing the right thing makarky is nonsense, was the SPL doing the right thing for Scottish Football when those teams broke away, was the new set up doing the right thing when the premiership was taking the lions share of the sponsorship, was the premiership doing the right thing when they voted against a 14 team league THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO so dont lump the Rovers with the blame , our vote was counting for nothing no matter which way the vote went. And to all those Falkirk fans baying for our demise, just remember for the sake of a point this would have been you !!!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer (Raconteur) Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, Scottydog said: or are faced with repaying league prize money We were paid out for final league placings, why would we have to repay anything? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Scottydog said: Only if saddled with a hefty 5 figure legal fee or are faced with repaying league prize money which would severely inconvenience if not cripple many a club, yours included. But in context of the questions Michael W asked a few pages ago, £100k of unexpected supporter funding already given, a six figure transfer fee presumably, a rates exemption for the season ahead, a £50k donation from James Anderson, another £25k of Coronavirus Business Support Grant, it's surprising that suddenly you are apparently so desperate for cash that £30k to £50k could send you over the edge? There's no scenarios in which you might have to repay League prize money either. If Hearts and Thistle win compensation i would come out of next year's fund and reduce potential payments down the line when you have time to plan for it. 59 minutes ago, Scottydog said: The difference in crowds between the leagues is negligible for home support it’s the away gate that is the kicker. Our average away gate in the season we were relegated was 900, the following season it was 100. 800 x £10 (average adult/concession) x 18 = £144k, add in loss in hospitality revenue and I reckon the relegation made at least £200k hole in our budget. Your last season at this level though saw Hibs and Dundee United in this division which corrupted your averages somewhat. You also have a massive away gate (relatively) from Dunfermline which while still relevant to you now, isn't relevant to Thistle whose arrival at the compensation number is what we're discussing here. Will Thistle's away support drop by 800 per game on average a division below (with Falkirk and Clyde still in it)? I don't know. Maybe? I'd have thought it would be a little lower though. Edited July 7, 2020 by Skyline Drifter 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its not only a game Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 So using that reasoning did 81% of all those league member also NOT do the right thing? I wanted reconstruction for bigger leagues, but not on a relatively temporary basis that would at some none too distant point potentially be the death knell of my club, I'm guessing most of that 81% felt the same.Don’t understand how accepting another 2 teams in the league would “ potentially be the death knell” of your club.?For the avoidance of doubt i was in favour of those teams at the top of the league being promoted- with the teams that came second- just didn’t think it was fair that teams got relegated- and the fairest solution was to have promotion and no relegation - another 2 teams has limited disadvantages .I understand the argument that every team needs to look after themselves first( mind you there will be no real change until that changes)- therefore on that basis no one can argue with what Hearts and Partick are doing?- they are looking after” their interests “But anyone who was pragmatic or had announce of common sense knew that those clubs who got relegated were going to go to court - arbitration to look after their interests. Result we have clubs who have no idea what their budget is next season?- bet your manager is scratching his head wondering what budget he has- what players he can sign until he has a budget- even what league he will be playing in next year? Now for avoidance of doubt I believe the leagues will remain as is- but arbitration comes with a risk and cost- result your team cannot with conviction go out and sign the players you want until you have certainty around your budget- could of been avoided- bet your manager would of preferred a reduced budget ( as a result of 2 more teams)- than the current situation where he is in limbo!. Chaos 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoBNob Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said: . You also have a massive away gate (relatively) from Dunfermline Nothing relatively about it SD, we're fucking massive. Anyway surely theirs fucking no danger Raith go to the wall etc over this, I'm not having it. I've taken the "help us out financially" stemming from the fact that say compared to the other 8 championship sides, this is a financial cost that you'll have that others won't, and you know, when the budget is tight already... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro Sham Bo Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 8 minutes ago, Grant228 said: Nothing relatively about it SD, we're fucking massive. Anyway surely theirs fucking no danger Raith go to the wall etc over this, I'm not having it. I've taken the "help us out financially" stemming from the fact that say compared to the other 8 championship sides, this is a financial cost that you'll have that others won't, and you know, when the budget is tight already... Definitely agree with this. The board are probably alarmed because the Bowie transfer fee and/or the crowdfunding money is potentially going to have a substantial chunk taken out of it by this but if this is genuinely enough to push us towards administration then I'd be amazed. If it was that bad I doubt we'd even have gotten involved in the legal action and just taken our chances. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 On 18/06/2020 at 16:53, Paco said: I agree with this entirely. Just as it wouldn’t be fair to deny us promotion (well alright, deny Dundee Utd and Cove promotion) it isn’t really fair for Hearts, Partick and to a much lesser extent Stranraer to go down. Based on the numbers that voted no/didn’t bother their arse to reply to the SPFL, I suspect Hearts and Partick’s own bleating earlier on in the process has relegated them, rather than anything else. I’m not massively comfortable with that if it is the case but as you say, there may be more behind it that we don’t know about. I said in mid-June I wasn’t entirely comfortable with us taking this route. The only publicly-stated reason we didn’t vote for the 14-10-10-10 plan was that it ‘wasn’t the time’ for reconstruction. We’d previously indicated we’d vote in favour of 14-14-14, and before the leagues were called Bill Clark said we were in favour of promoting two sides from each league, with no relegation. It seems like we got fed up of Budge and Hearts with their desire for temporary change and bluster, so dropped our support and are now feeling the consequences. Of course, our vote wouldn’t have made a single difference but maybe we could’ve just said yes in a futile gesture manner? I’d have a lot more sympathy otherwise. The board made a miscalculation. They also could’ve tried not sending anyone to court and saved themselves for the arbitration. Or even let it all play out and if we’re disadvantaged in any way, then we begin with the legal action and lawyers. Definitely hindsight talking, of course, I’m quite sure these weren’t easy decisions. But this isn’t playing out very well at all. We won’t go bust we could in theory end up demoted and have blown any wiggle room to fight back. What a mess. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALDERON Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Paco said: I said in mid-June I wasn’t entirely comfortable with us taking this route. The only publicly-stated reason we didn’t vote for the 14-10-10-10 plan was that it ‘wasn’t the time’ for reconstruction. We’d previously indicated we’d vote in favour of 14-14-14, and before the leagues were called Bill Clark said we were in favour of promoting two sides from each league, with no relegation. It seems like we got fed up of Budge and Hearts with their desire for temporary change and bluster, so dropped our support and are now feeling the consequences. Of course, our vote wouldn’t have made a single difference but maybe we could’ve just said yes in a futile gesture manner? I’d have a lot more sympathy otherwise. The board made a miscalculation. They also could’ve tried not sending anyone to court and saved themselves for the arbitration. Or even let it all play out and if we’re disadvantaged in any way, then we begin with the legal action and lawyers. Definitely hindsight talking, of course, I’m quite sure these weren’t easy decisions. But this isn’t playing out very well at all. We won’t go bust we could in theory end up demoted and have blown any wiggle room to fight back. What a mess. This, pretty much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdinburghPar1975 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 hours ago, CALDERON said: However, we are in a position now where we are asking for financial help from others. I don't think we've exactly endeared ourselves to others here. This is not something that is off Raith's doing. FWIW i'd happily chuck a few quid in a crowdfunder to help cover fee's of the three named teams. It's one thing being pushed close to the line by the pandemic, totally another when it's caused by the actions of another team. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirJimmyofNic Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 If any one of DUFC, OURSELVES or COVE, had failed to answer the petition in court , we may well have been found in contempt as well as opening the door for Lord Clark to rule on no promotion, hence why we had to have legal representation seperate from the SPFL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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