The New Raith Rovers Thread

[Fifes Elite Force]

12 minutes ago, invocr said:

There's a more up-to-date version on the Trust website: http://www.raithtrust.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/OwnershipInfographicOct16.pdf

The document was released in October 2016 but still has Turnbull Hutton as a shareholder of the holding company of the football club and he died in April 2015. I assume his estate hasn't been settled yet or the shares transferred but that's a large chunk of shareholding

[invocr]

16 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

The document was released in October 2016 but still has Turnbull Hutton as a shareholder of the holding company of the football club and he died in April 2015. I assume his estate hasn't been settled yet or the shares transferred but that's a large chunk of shareholding

Yep, pretty sizeable chunk. Will be interesting to see what happens to them. This is from New Raith Rovers last annual return:

 

[Fifes Elite Force]

Looks like there has been a confirmation statement since then which only confirms there is no one with person with significant control. I think these can be used instead of annual returns now although I did think they had to detail changes in the ownership on the statements? Could be wrong though

[Poet of the Macabre]

2 hours ago, Andy C said:

Poor creditor fucking Pars, absolutely desperate to pass that horrible reputation on to their wholesome superiors.

Sad.

Don't lash out now, Andy. We've been down this road before and are merely offering expert guidance. I'm sure we'll host some form of friendly match to help raise some much-needed funds.

#savetherovers #roversunited #weewillnotdie

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

Looks like there has been a confirmation statement since then which only confirms there is no one with person with significant control. I think these can be used instead of annual returns now although I did think they had to detail changes in the ownership on the statements? Could be wrong though

Confirmation statements have replaced Annual Returns. It's not an either / or. They changed at July 2016.

They do have to detail changes in ownership. Presumably Hutton's shares remain in his estate for now. It's not unusual for that to be the case for a year or two in larger estates.

[Skyline Drifter]

5 hours ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

Lets break this down

Firstly your quote said "The vast majority of the £935k will be directors loans or possibly inter company loans to other parts of the group". So the real answer is you don't know and are only guessing. I then pointed out that the likehood is probably directors loans going by the quote " relies on the financial support of the directors to continue trading".  However if you read my line of questioning throughout the thread I want clarity on it. Something you cannot give and are purely guessing unless you can offer some inside info?

Secondly I think you have misread what I am saying, heres my quote

" If John Sim has a personal guarantee with the bank for the debt then that would be (and is) on the balance sheet of the stadium company not the football club so it wouldn't be included in the figure in the football clubs accounts surely? "

I am pointing out the debt is on the balance sheet of the stadium company and therefore any personal guarantee would be attributed to the stadium companies debt and therefore nothing to do with the football which another poster is claiming. I think you are picking up that I am pointing out that a guarantee would be on the balance sheet I am well aware this won't be but it might be mentioned as part of the notes, probably more likely if it was full audited accounts. My post was more focussed on who's accounts the debt would be sitting on in direct response to the poster who mentioned it. It is only security after all. If the club had anything to do with the debt itself would it not be one the stadium companies balance sheet as a debtor?

 

So going back to the question in my posts

"Has there been any statements for Rovers to explain these amounts or is the club relyng on shareholder loans to keep trading?"

 

You seem to know your accounts are you able to answer the question about the amounts involved on the clubs accounts and is the club relying on shareholder loans to keep trading?

I don't know, but Raith have publicly said in the past that there is significant debt to directors so I'm only making presumptions about the size of the loans, not the existence. We both know it's likely mostly Directors Loans because Raith have said so. The quote you are relying on about financial support however still doesn't necessarily indicate the actual balance owing is to Directors. For the sake of argument, if they owe £900k to the Bank of Scotland which is personally guaranteed by Directors then the same quote would exist but they debt wouldn't be to the directors. We do know however that they owe nothing to the bank as they've said so so that's not the case here. They've said they have very little external debt so it's a reasonable assumption it's mostly directors loans or inter company loans. It's conceivable some of it could also be deferred capital grants too, though that's less likely as those would usually relate to property and the football club doesn't own the ground. Capital grants would more likely be in Starks Park Properties but as I'm not privy to Raith's accounts, I wouldn't know. It would be interesting to hear if the minority shareholders, of which there are around 300 according to the confirmation statement, get more detailed accounts than Companies House do. Anyone know? QoS shareholders certainly get more detailed sets than are filed publicly.

 

[Fifes Elite Force]

42 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I don't know, but Raith have publicly said in the past that there is significant debt to directors so I'm only making presumptions about the size of the loans, not the existence. We both know it's likely mostly Directors Loans because Raith have said so. The quote you are relying on about financial support however still doesn't necessarily indicate the actual balance owing is to Directors. For the sake of argument, if they owe £900k to the Bank of Scotland which is personally guaranteed by Directors then the same quote would exist but they debt wouldn't be to the directors. We do know however that they owe nothing to the bank as they've said so so that's not the case here. They've said they have very little external debt so it's a reasonable assumption it's mostly directors loans or inter company loans. It's conceivable some of it could also be deferred capital grants too, though that's less likely as those would usually relate to property and the football club doesn't own the ground. Capital grants would more likely be in Starks Park Properties but as I'm not privy to Raith's accounts, I wouldn't know. It would be interesting to hear if the minority shareholders, of which there are around 300 according to the confirmation statement, get more detailed accounts than Companies House do. Anyone know? QoS shareholders certainly get more detailed sets than are filed publicly.

 

So basically exactly what I have said on this thread from the outset that we think it's directors loans but we are not 100% sure? Additionally my questions have been around why the figure is increasing from the 2014 accounts by quite a large amount (was the previous statement you suggested around the debts being director loans recent or a couple of years ago?) and why the club have moved away from having open agms which is something if I was a Rovers fan might like to know.

 

The personal guarantee we both know is irrelevant it only really came up because another poster thought the figure included the stadium debt and didn't realise it's in a separate company and I was only pointing that out to them.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force

[Fifes Elite Force]

44 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Confirmation statements have replaced Annual Returns. It's not an either / or. They changed at July 2016.

They do have to detail changes in ownership. Presumably Hutton's shares remain in his estate for now. It's not unusual for that to be the case for a year or two in larger estates.

I thought that thanks for clarifying.

Edit - found the answer myself to the question listed

Edited April 13, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force

[Rovers_Lad]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I don't know, but Raith have publicly said in the past that there is significant debt to directors so I'm only making presumptions about the size of the loans, not the existence. We both know it's likely mostly Directors Loans because Raith have said so. The quote you are relying on about financial support however still doesn't necessarily indicate the actual balance owing is to Directors. For the sake of argument, if they owe £900k to the Bank of Scotland which is personally guaranteed by Directors then the same quote would exist but they debt wouldn't be to the directors. We do know however that they owe nothing to the bank as they've said so so that's not the case here. They've said they have very little external debt so it's a reasonable assumption it's mostly directors loans or inter company loans. It's conceivable some of it could also be deferred capital grants too, though that's less likely as those would usually relate to property and the football club doesn't own the ground. Capital grants would more likely be in Starks Park Properties but as I'm not privy to Raith's accounts, I wouldn't know. It would be interesting to hear if the minority shareholders, of which there are around 300 according to the confirmation statement, get more detailed accounts than Companies House do. Anyone know? QoS shareholders certainly get more detailed sets than are filed publicly.

 

I have shares in the holding company and sure we get more detailed accounts when we get them

[Beachbum]

[Beachbum]

More dross from this week's FFP.

[lellywong]

Not quite sure why you would describe this as "dross". 

[Scary Bear]

More dross from this week's FFP.

The punters on Fantalk have been looking for a rallying cry. There they have it.

[Ro Sham Bo]

Not quite sure why you would describe this as "dross". 

Because a different player has been coming out with similar guff for weeks now and we're still waiting for something, anything, to happen.

[Scary Bear]

Because a different player has been coming out with similar guff for weeks now and we're still waiting for something, anything, to happen.

Ah, but this time it was Davo. Watch us win tomorrow.

[Stellaboz]

I'm more confident you guys will beat Fourton than us beating Dumbarton or Ayr getting 3 points. Dunno why, just a strange feeling.

[Rovers1992/1993]

I'm more confident you guys will beat Fourton than us beating Dumbarton or Ayr getting 3 points. Dunno why, just a strange feeling.

Were you not there last week, I take it?

[Beachbum]

[Stellaboz]

Were you not there last week, I take it?

Couldn't make it unfortunately.

[Rovers1992/1993]

Couldn't make it unfortunately.

I suppose I'll forgive the comment about our chances tomorrow then..