Skyline Drifter Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 33 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said: Correct, that's what my post states, heres the quote "At the year end the company had net liabilities of £878,120 and it relies on the financial support of the directors to continue trading,. The directors have confirmed that they will continue to provide adequate support for the foreseeable future and they consider it appropriate to prepare the financial statements as a going concern" Well, no, it doesn't. Nothing in that quote, which you've quoted twice now and is a pretty bog standard going concern caveat in an auditor's report, actually says who the debt is to. It could all be owed to The Robert Maxwell Pension Fund for all you know based on that quote. All that says is that the company owes a lot of money and that it depends on financial support of directors to guarantee it's ability to continue to service that debt (to whatever extent it actually needs serviced, it may be interest free and on easy repayment / no repayment terms for all we know here). Incidentally, a guarantee from directors wouldn't be on the balance sheet of ANY company. A guarantee if just what it says, a promise to pay something if the company defaults, It's not a liability in itself and wouldn't have a financial value in the accounts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifes Elite Force Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said: Well, no, it doesn't. Nothing in that quote, which you've quoted twice now and is a pretty bog standard going concern caveat in an auditor's report, actually says who the debt is to. It could all be owed to The Robert Maxwell Pension Fund for all you know based on that quote. All that says is that the company owes a lot of money and that it depends on financial support of directors to guarantee it's ability to continue to service that debt (to whatever extent it actually needs serviced, it may be interest free and on easy repayment / no repayment terms for all we know here). Incidentally, a guarantee from directors wouldn't be on the balance sheet of ANY company. A guarantee if just what it says, a promise to pay something if the company defaults, It's not a liability in itself and wouldn't have a financial value in the accounts. Lets break this down Firstly your quote said "The vast majority of the £935k will be directors loans or possibly inter company loans to other parts of the group". So the real answer is you don't know and are only guessing. I then pointed out that the likehood is probably directors loans going by the quote " relies on the financial support of the directors to continue trading". However if you read my line of questioning throughout the thread I want clarity on it. Something you cannot give and are purely guessing unless you can offer some inside info? Secondly I think you have misread what I am saying, heres my quote " If John Sim has a personal guarantee with the bank for the debt then that would be (and is) on the balance sheet of the stadium company not the football club so it wouldn't be included in the figure in the football clubs accounts surely? " I am pointing out the debt is on the balance sheet of the stadium company and therefore any personal guarantee would be attributed to the stadium companies debt and therefore nothing to do with the football which another poster is claiming. I think you are picking up that I am pointing out that a guarantee would be on the balance sheet I am well aware this won't be but it might be mentioned as part of the notes, probably more likely if it was full audited accounts. My post was more focussed on who's accounts the debt would be sitting on in direct response to the poster who mentioned it. It is only security after all. If the club had anything to do with the debt itself would it not be one the stadium companies balance sheet as a debtor? So going back to the question in my posts "Has there been any statements for Rovers to explain these amounts or is the club relyng on shareholder loans to keep trading?" You seem to know your accounts are you able to answer the question about the amounts involved on the clubs accounts and is the club relying on shareholder loans to keep trading? Edited April 13, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
distresseduke Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 a director can ask for his loan to be repaid at anytime (if the company has the money to pay it)....which clearly here it doesnt...directors loans taken out as oppossed to in attract an interest rate...but im sure any (if applicable) would be waived 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers_Lad Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fifes Elite Force said: Correct, that's what my post states, heres the quote "At the year end the company had net liabilities of £878,120 and it relies on the financial support of the directors to continue trading,. The directors have confirmed that they will continue to provide adequate support for the foreseeable future and they consider it appropriate to prepare the financial statements as a going concern" Its actually not complicated at all, John Sim owns 51% of the stadium company with the other two shareholders owning a combined 49%. If John Sim has a personal guarantee with the bank for the debt then that would be (and is) on the balance sheet of the stadium company not the football club so it wouldn't be included in the figure in the football clubs accounts surely? The stadium company owns the stadium, It has the debt and security has been provided. where does the debt in the football clubs accounts come into it? Surely if they did then the stadium company would have debtors for the same amount that is owed to them by the club but it sits at zero at the moment? I am not an expert of accounts so happy for someone to explain it to me Complicated maybe not but not exactly straight forward.See link from trust website outlining the structure.However,I think that's from a number of years ago and there have been many changes since.The debt includes the stadium,if not were fucked http://www.raithtrust.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/OwnershipInfographicMar13.pdf Edited April 13, 2017 by Rovers_Lad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Perhaps if Dunfermline fans had taken as much interest into their own financial mess as much as they are Raiths current financial situation they may not have been so close to going down the tubes and might not have had to shaft a whole bunch of creditors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifes Elite Force Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Shadwell Dog said: Perhaps if Dunfermline fans had taken as much interest into their own financial mess as much as they are Raiths current financial situation they may not have been so close to going down the tubes and might not have had to shaft a whole bunch of creditors. Perhaps all supporters should learn from the mistakes of others? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifes Elite Force Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Rovers_Lad said: Complicated maybe not but not exactly straight forward.See link from trust website outlining the structure.However,I think that's from a number of years ago and there have been many changes since.The debt includes the stadium,if not were fucked http://www.raithtrust.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/OwnershipInfographicMar13.pdf Couldn't get in via the link for some reason but found it on the site. Looking at the structure it looks at least roughly the same without going into companies house in too much detail. There are a number of company but there are two key strands the companies that own the stadium and the company that owes the football club itself. The amount I mentioned earlier to the tune of 900k is in the football club accounts while the 400k is in the accounts for the stadium company side of things and from what I can see they are separate completely so I don't think the 900k will be anything to do with the 400k. Of course like I have said they are only abbreviated accounts so we don't know the while picture but I think they are separate debts and I am not an expert on accounts so someone might be able to give more clarity Going by speculation and reading between the lines the 900k is soft loans provided by directors but that's what I am trying to find out for sure. And why it has risen so sharply in two years? Edited April 13, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said: Perhaps all supporters should learn from the mistakes of others? Well Dunfermline fans certainly never learned anything from Livingston(twice), Dundee(twice), Gretna or Motherwell etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifes Elite Force Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Just now, Shadwell Dog said: Well Dunfermline fans certainly never learned anything from Livingston(twice), Dundee(twice), Gretna or Motherwell etc. Never too late to learn bud, I am rooting for you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellaboz Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Well Dunfermline fans certainly never learned anything from Livingston(twice), Dundee(twice), Gretna or Motherwell etc. Nor have you by the sounds of things champ. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebanda's Handyman Services Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Poor creditor fucking Pars, absolutely desperate to pass that horrible reputation on to their wholesome superiors. Sad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifes Elite Force Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Andy C said: Poor creditor fucking Pars, absolutely desperate to pass that horrible reputation on to their wholesome superiors. Sad. Similar to the banks we were too big to fail so we knew everyone including creditors would have to deal with accepting the CVA terms I am afraid Rovers might not hold that much clout Anyway it's not my battle to fight and only looked at this really out of curiosity while skiving at work, I think there is some questions the fans could be asking the board to get a level of comfort around the clubs finances up to you guys to decide if you should/want to ask those questions. Edited April 13, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 34 minutes ago, Shadwell Dog said: Well Dunfermline fans certainly never learned anything from Livingston(twice), Dundee(twice), Gretna or Motherwell etc. Don't forget Hamilton and Morton. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers_Lad Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said: Couldn't get in via the link for some reason but found it on the site. Looking at the structure it looks at least roughly the same without going into companies house in too much detail. There are a number of company but there are two key strands the companies that own the stadium and the company that owes the football club itself. The amount I mentioned earlier to the tune of 900k is in the football club accounts while the 400k is in the accounts for the stadium company side of things and from what I can see they are separate completely so I don't think the 900k will be anything to do with the 400k. Of course like I have said they are only abbreviated accounts so we don't know the while picture but I think they are separate debts and I am not an expert on accounts so someone might be able to give more clarity Going by speculation and reading between the lines the 900k is soft loans provided by directors but that's what I am trying to find out for sure. And why it has risen so sharply in two years? Again not great at the number crunching/accounts but if the debt is indeed 900k ( plus stadium)I,m sure the shareholders will be wanting to know why and why it's risen so sharply in the last two years.Unfortunately our board have or are beginning to lose touch with supporters.Theres no connect Edited April 13, 2017 by Rovers_Lad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro Sham Bo Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Fifes Elite Force said: Has there been an open invite to the AGM since 2014? Looking at the accounts the figure for these creditors due within 1 year has risen from 353,845 on 30/06/2014 to 934,611 to 30/06/2016. Has there been any statements for Rovers to explain these amounts or is the club relyng on shareholder loans to keep trading? Nobody knows because the club only tends to publicise the accounts when we make a profit. We are clearly relying on the support of the board and other external investors to keep us going. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifes Elite Force Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rovers_Lad said: Again not great at the number crunching/accounts but if the debt is indeed 900k ( plus stadium)I,m sure the shareholders will be wanting to know why and why it's risen so sharply in the last two years.Unfortunately our board have or are beginning to lose touch with supporters.Theres no connect Possibly. That's why I asked the question earlier if am open AGM had take place since the one mentioned in 2014? Having that open communication might help and you might hear the boards perspective on things at the club as they don't really seem like they are very good with press statements. From the boards point of view they maybe only see opinions on messageboards or shouting from the stands. I am curious to why they ditched the open AGM, was it only a one off? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifes Elite Force Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Martin Nelson said: Nobody knows because the club only tends to publicise the accounts when we make a profit. We are clearly relying on the support of the board and other external investors to keep us going. Aye it seems that way tbh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers_Lad Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Fifes Elite Force said: Possibly. That's why I asked the question earlier if am open AGM had take place since the one mentioned in 2014? Having that open communication might help and you might hear the boards perspective on things at the club as they don't really seem like they are very good with press statements. From the boards point of view they maybe only see opinions on messageboards or shouting from the stands. I am curious to why they ditched the open AGM, was it only a one off? Think the last AGM was an open one in early 2015 Our board not good at press statement is an understatement 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Stellaboz said: Nor have you by the sounds of things champ. You've lost me there mate . Was only a year ago we made a 1.5 million pound profit. Okay we're not rolling in it but we're not going to go into admin or worse any time soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invocr Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Rovers_Lad said: See link from trust website outlining the structure.However,I think that's from a number of years ago and there have been many changes since.The debt includes the stadium,if not were fucked http://www.raithtrust.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/OwnershipInfographicMar13.pdf There's a more up-to-date version on the Trust website: http://www.raithtrust.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/OwnershipInfographicOct16.pdf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.