The New Raith Rovers Thread

[TxRover]

4 hours ago, Always next quarter said:

Each to their own but IMO this is as mystifying as it is nieve. I thought the suggestion that Masson and Mcneil should play more was ambitious but this is next level. 

You did see us getting completely over run in the midfield yesterday? Is Mcbride who offered nothing our striker? 

Here’s the reality, as @pub car king notes, we need an option. What formation would you have used Saturday, with Brown out, Isma out and Vaughan not full match ready? Our 4-2-3-1 failed in spectacular fashion…what should we have done? Remember, in designing your formation, the bench has Thomson, Masson, Young, Ngwenya, McGill, Vaughan available.

[renton]

7 hours ago, TxRover said:

Here’s the reality, as @pub car king notes, we need an option. What formation would you have used Saturday, with Brown out, Isma out and Vaughan not full match ready? Our 4-2-3-1 failed in spectacular fashion…what should we have done? Remember, in designing your formation, the bench has Thomson, Masson, Young, Ngwenya, McGill, Vaughan available.

It wouldn't have mattered what shape we played on Saturday. The whole team just wasn't at it.

[Raithfan2711]

1 hour ago, renton said:

It wouldn't have mattered what shape we played on Saturday. The whole team just wasn't at it.

This. Don’t believe a completely different set up would have made a difference and it may have hindered our flow going forward even more.

Sometimes you just have to accept the players that come in were just a downgrade and Partick had a stronger team. McBride was all over the shop and Akio’s movement was absolute schoolboy. Stanton was also playing out of position, when we went 1-0 down was clearly told to play higher up the pitch and that left Spencer exposed with McBride offering nothing, and the centre backs had a poor game.

Never seen Akio once make a decent run off the ball on Saturday. There’s a moment at 0-0 in the highlights where a better position might have resulted in a goal. Dare I say it but Connell would have done better there.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Raithfan2711

[renton]

Yeah, Akio as a number 9 and McBride as a number 10 was just awful, and contributed to Thistle being able to dominate a midfield already hamstrung by the lack of a recognised holding midfielder.

Brown, hopefully will be back sooner than later by the sounds of it which is great. Vaughan being fit at least gives us an option at 10 but we are still badly lacking up top. After all of it, Gullan is still the best option we have and how likely are we to see him again this season?

If Goncalves isn't fit for Sunday I dont know exactly how we expect to have an outball....

[Raith Against The Machine]

Fundamentally, it's incredibly difficult to play without a proper defensive midfielder. You only have to look at Dundee United in the division above to see that. If you go through their squad man-by-man and compare it to other teams in the bottom six of the Premiership, they're comfortably better off. But the whole thing is entirely undermined by their failure to bring in a destructive midfielder in the last two windows. 

They get dragged about all over the place, their defence is constantly being run at and can't cope, and their decent creative midfielders like Dylan Levitt look like shit because they're having to try and cover positions and roles that they're not suited to. 

It's not a question of changing the formation, in isolation. You can't just load a bunch of attacking midfielders and forwards on the pitch and hope that making them stand in a diamond they'll be fine. If you're playing a midfield two, three or four (with whatever configuration behind and ahead of them), someone needs to be tasked with doing the dirty work. It's not just about tackling, it's about covering runs, marking space, filling in behind full-backs when they leave gaps. 

I said before kick off on Saturday that Brad Spencer was the only real candidate for that, and he was. You can see from the way he plays normally that he understands the game, and understands which elements of 'midfielding' he usually has responsibility for, and what Scott Brown does. But there's a huge difference between understanding what someone else does, and having the aptitude and ability to do it well. 

In a bigger squad with more options, you'd also be able to look to senior centre halfs or full backs to see if they can plug the gap, but we don't have any central defenders spare, so the only real alternative is asking Liam Dick to come in and sit, and play Ngwenya at left back. Given he's never played in midfield before (to my knowledge), I'm not convinced. You maybe get more defensive nous and positioning sense than we got from Spencer, but you're not getting anywhere near the capability to move the ball forwards once you've got it. 

There was some chat in the stand on Saturday about going to a back three, but that presents the same issue. You're still not engaging the opposition midfield, all you've got is an extra defender in the last line trying to hold off 90 minutes of pressure 18 yards from goal. Dundee United have tried that one a fair bit. Look at their GA column for an idea of how it's going. 

It's obviously nowhere near as drastic, but playing without a natural defensive midfielder is like playing without a goalkeeper. It's a fundamental role, and you can do all the shuffling around with 4-3-3s and 4-4-2s that you want, you've still got a massive glaring issue to contend with. Even a side like Celtic who can blow away most sides they face by just throwing down any random assortment of their midfielders and forwards have Callum McGregor in as an almost ever-present. 

We've been exceptionally fortunate that, with Matthews' long term injury, this is the first time we've had to do without Brown. It's the risk you take with a small squad. We've only got one senior right back. We've only got two dedicated senior centre halfs. We've got two defensive midfielders, but they're both missing. You try to cover and make do, but if you come up against a decent team who don't have an off day, you'll be up against it. 

[Youngmcnaughtleigh]

On 03/03/2023 at 21:25, TxRover said:

Post on FanTalk suggests the buses are sold out.

I have a seat but not needing bit 

[TxRover]

2 hours ago, Against The Machine said:

Fundamentally, it's incredibly difficult to play without a proper defensive midfielder. You only have to look at Dundee United in the division above to see that. If you go through their squad man-by-man and compare it to other teams in the bottom six of the Premiership, they're comfortably better off. But the whole thing is entirely undermined by their failure to bring in a destructive midfielder in the last two windows. 

They get dragged about all over the place, their defence is constantly being run at and can't cope, and their decent creative midfielders like Dylan Levitt look like shit because they're having to try and cover positions and roles that they're not suited to. 

It's not a question of changing the formation, in isolation. You can't just load a bunch of attacking midfielders and forwards on the pitch and hope that making them stand in a diamond they'll be fine. If you're playing a midfield two, three or four (with whatever configuration behind and ahead of them), someone needs to be tasked with doing the dirty work. It's not just about tackling, it's about covering runs, marking space, filling in behind full-backs when they leave gaps. 

I said before kick off on Saturday that Brad Spencer was the only real candidate for that, and he was. You can see from the way he plays normally that he understands the game, and understands which elements of 'midfielding' he usually has responsibility for, and what Scott Brown does. But there's a huge difference between understanding what someone else does, and having the aptitude and ability to do it well. 

In a bigger squad with more options, you'd also be able to look to senior centre halfs or full backs to see if they can plug the gap, but we don't have any central defenders spare, so the only real alternative is asking Liam Dick to come in and sit, and play Ngwenya at left back. Given he's never played in midfield before (to my knowledge), I'm not convinced. You maybe get more defensive nous and positioning sense than we got from Spencer, but you're not getting anywhere near the capability to move the ball forwards once you've got it. 

There was some chat in the stand on Saturday about going to a back three, but that presents the same issue. You're still not engaging the opposition midfield, all you've got is an extra defender in the last line trying to hold off 90 minutes of pressure 18 yards from goal. Dundee United have tried that one a fair bit. Look at their GA column for an idea of how it's going. 

It's obviously nowhere near as drastic, but playing without a natural defensive midfielder is like playing without a goalkeeper. It's a fundamental role, and you can do all the shuffling around with 4-3-3s and 4-4-2s that you want, you've still got a massive glaring issue to contend with. Even a side like Celtic who can blow away most sides they face by just throwing down any random assortment of their midfielders and forwards have Callum McGregor in as an almost ever-present. 

We've been exceptionally fortunate that, with Matthews' long term injury, this is the first time we've had to do without Brown. It's the risk you take with a small squad. We've only got one senior right back. We've only got two dedicated senior centre halfs. We've got two defensive midfielders, but they're both missing. You try to cover and make do, but if you come up against a decent team who don't have an off day, you'll be up against it. 

This is a long version of what I’m saying. Small squad, focused on a single formation, and it’s gonna be an issue without the reserve for a couple of critical players. There are other formations we could play that might somewhat paper over Brown’s absence, but it now seems we’ve decided not to try to adapt, but rather to jam a square peg (Stanton) into a round hole (DM). We could have placed Spencer centrally in a flat diamond midfield…Connolly and Easton are both capable in a slightly reserved position, and Stanton behind a pair of attacking options (though, to be fair, the lack of bit available up front makes me reconsider calling them that) would be preferable.

Small squad is no excuse for an inability to adapt or adjust, in fact there should have been a plan for this from the beginning.

[Raith Against The Machine]

3 hours ago, TxRover said:

This is a long version of what I’m saying. Small squad, focused on a single formation, and it’s gonna be an issue without the reserve for a couple of critical players. There are other formations we could play that might somewhat paper over Brown’s absence, but it now seems we’ve decided not to try to adapt, but rather to jam a square peg (Stanton) into a round hole (DM). We could have placed Spencer centrally in a flat diamond midfield…Connolly and Easton are both capable in a slightly reserved position, and Stanton behind a pair of attacking options (though, to be fair, the lack of bit available up front makes me reconsider calling them that) would be preferable.

Small squad is no excuse for an inability to adapt or adjust, in fact there should have been a plan for this from the beginning.

That's more like the opposite of what I'm saying. If you're building a small squad, and Murray has no other choice, two specialist destructive midfielders is broadly fine. Three would be excessive. But if they're both missing, tough totties. You can do all the midfield jangling you want (including a narrow diamond with Easton and Connolly as the transition men which would go... badly) and you'll still likely get overrun by half-decent opposition. 

If, in training this week, Ross Millen and Adam Masson run into each other and break their legs, we're going to have to pick a name out of a tombola and stick that unlucky sod at right back. And at Ibrox on Sunday, they'll focus on that weakness and repeatedly tear us apart down that side.

That's the scenario we're in. Just because we've got other nominal "central midfielders", we don't have someone available who can do what Brown and Matthews do. No amount of contingency planning or formation rotation will entirely address that. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Against The Machine

[Brashy's Boots]

1 hour ago, TxRover said:

This is a long version of what I’m saying. Small squad, focused on a single formation, and it’s gonna be an issue without the reserve for a couple of critical players. There are other formations we could play that might somewhat paper over Brown’s absence, but it now seems we’ve decided not to try to adapt, but rather to jam a square peg (Stanton) into a round hole (DM). We could have placed Spencer centrally in a flat diamond midfield…Connolly and Easton are both capable in a slightly reserved position, and Stanton behind a pair of attacking options (though, to be fair, the lack of bit available up front makes me reconsider calling them that) would be preferable.

Small squad is no excuse for an inability to adapt or adjust, in fact there should have been a plan for this from the beginning.

Of course a small squad is an excuse for inability to adapt or adjust. Unless every player we sign can play every position, we're always going to run out of sensible options in the face of adversity, severely impacting our ability to do anything about it.

This is where we're at for one reason or another - out of sensible options. Bonkers formations lifted from the MLS or your fevered mind can't paper over every crack which opens up.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Against The Machine said:

That's more like the opposite of what I'm saying. If you're building a small squad, and Murray has no other two choice, two specialist destructive midfielders is broadly fine. Three would be excessive. But if they're both missing, tough totties. You can do all the midfield jangling you want (including a narrow diamond with Easton and Connolly as the transition men which would go... badly) and you'll still likely get overrun by half-decent opposition. 

If, in training this week, Ross Millen and Adam Masson run into each other and break their legs, we're going to have to pick a name out of a tombola and stick that unlucky sod at right back. And at Ibrox on Sunday, they'll focus on that weakness and repeatedly tear us apart down that side.

That's the scenario we're in. Just because we've got other nominal "central midfielders", we don't have someone available who can do what Brown and Matthews do. No amount of contingency planning or formation rotation will entirely address that. 

We’re hitting the same target from opposite sides. The issue I see here is IM’s small squad, probably enforced by a low budget, is not practical at this level in terms of success, other than survival…the goal IM was probably assigned, and seems to have competed. There is a difference between a small squad and an inadequate squad, as we are now finding out.

It seems clear now the owner had decided this year was a recovery year from the past “issues”, so IM was a perfect manager because of his experience with a small squad/budget at Airdrie. Next year will be interesting…do we get a larger player budget…do we have a new owner(s)…can IM deliver a playoff challenge…can we retain certain critical players?

P.S. Flat diamond is the opposite of a narrow diamond, but I absolutely agree either would be sub-optimal.

[TxRover]

44 minutes ago, Brashy's Boots said:

Of course a small squad is an excuse for inability to adapt or adjust. Unless every player we sign can play every position, we're always going to run out of sensible options in the face of adversity, severely impacting our ability to do anything about it.

This is where we're at for one reason or another - out of sensible options. Bonkers formations lifted from the MLS or your fevered mind can't paper over every crack which opens up.

I understand that, but I do wonder why McGill, when I’m sure a DM from somewhere was available for loan. I’m sure there is a reason(s)…money, quality, experience, developing a relationship with a team…and we’ll never truly know why/why not. However, suggesting a 4-4-2 with a flat diamond midfield is bonkers is a bit excessive, although seeing how we”d have to position players isn’t reassuring.

[TxRover]

Saw this description of the Pars v Falkirk match tonight and though it truly summed it up perfectly:

“All these fans of other clubs it feels like a big Scottish football reunion in here. Everyone has come out to the smoking area to watch the two family disappointments have a scrap.”

[CountryBumpkin]

37 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Saw this description of the Pars v Falkirk match tonight and though it truly summed it up perfectly:

“All these fans of other clubs it feels like a big Scottish football reunion in here. Everyone has come out to the smoking area to watch the two family disappointments have a scrap.”

 

Over 9000 tickets sold apparently to watch 22 bang average guys kick a football around. We only dream of home crowds close to that though to be fair. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by CountryBumpkin

[TxRover]

2 hours ago, CountryBumpkin said:

 

Over 9000 tickets sold apparently to watch 22 bang average guys kick a football around. We only dream of home crowds close to that though to be fair. 

Yep, but I just loved the image of a large family gathering with the two black sheep lads facing off for a square go.

[Kdawg]

Given Kdy and Dunfermline are similar in size and that the Pars have been underachieving for a number of years now, the fact they still manage to pull in 7,000 home fans for a midweek league one game is remarkable. What are they doing that we aren’t? We would be lucky to pull in half of that for a big game.

[Raithie]

6 minutes ago, Kdawg said:

Given Kdy and Dunfermline are similar in size and that the Pars have been underachieving for a number of years now, the fact they still manage to pull in 7,000 home fans for a midweek league one game is remarkable. What are they doing that we aren’t? We would be lucky to pull in half of that for a big game.

The fixture in question plays a part, they should be questioning where these fans are every week. On another note see McGlynn has shat the bed again at East End Park. 

[Beachbum]

12 minutes ago, Kdawg said:

Given Kdy and Dunfermline are similar in size and that the Pars have been underachieving for a number of years now, the fact they still manage to pull in 7,000 home fans for a midweek league one game is remarkable. What are they doing that we aren’t? We would be lucky to pull in half of that for a big game.

Never believe any figures coming from East End Park. They've been fixing them for years.

[CALDERON]

As much as there is a lot of work to be done, I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that we would have been better off with Mcglynn.

I wouldn't count on Falkirk beating Arbroath,  Cove or Hamilton to be honest.  

[Ro Sham Bo]

19 minutes ago, Raithie said:

 On another note see McGlynn has shat the bed again at East End Park. 

I'm very petty about these things, and I'm taking more pleasure out of this than I really should. To the extent that I actively wanted Dunfermline to win tonight 

[Specky Ginger]

The one thing that really struck me tonight is that, despite our issues with central defenders, we made the right call in not offering Sean Mackie another deal.