The New Raith Rovers Thread

[JagsCG]

19 minutes ago, kev23 said:

They don't. They might have been bottom of the league but in these circumstances no one deserves to go down. If the roles were reversed I'd dread to imagine what state our fanbase would be in. The most *fair model would have been allowing Kelty and Brora into the league and allowing for promotion and no relegation. (As said a million times)
As amusing as it is watching fans of Hearts and Thistle go into complete meltdown over this, and watching Falkirk trying to beg themselves into the championship, seeing clubs go down, with a quarter of the games still to be played, is ridiculous.

*i get this model would have still been unfair to Airdrie, Montrose, Bonnyrigg etc.
 

Ah finally a bit of honesty from a fan not in the situation of the relegated clubs, fair play to you, it’s been hard to come by these past few weeks. You are spot on! (I too would be amused at some of the meltdown if I wasn’t a Thistle fan, but I’d like to hope I’d still have a bit of neutrality  about me to realise it’s unfair) 

[JagsCG]

18 minutes ago, virginton said:

If no one deserves to go down with a quarter of the games to be played then no one deserves to up either - least of all a team that were just one point clear at the top of the table when virus halted play. So if you want to swap places with that Possil rabble in the spirit of 'fairness' right now then you should indicate that to your club and they can take it up with the SPFL.

You don't get to pick only the nice competition rules to apply and arbitrarily expand the leagues to keep your promotion though. 

When you say no one? Do you include Dundee United and Cove who were streets ahead in their leagues? Because they do deserve to go up, I think everyone would probably accept it, even the clubs in the arbitration case know they deserve it, I’d imagine. 

[RaithRover123]

12 minutes ago, JagsCG said:

When you say no one? Do you include Dundee United and Cove who were streets ahead in their leagues? Because they do deserve to go up, I think everyone would probably accept it, even the clubs in the arbitration case know they deserve it, I’d imagine. 

Our excuse for not being 20 points clear is that our star player and goal scorer was injured 95% of the season, so it can’t be argued that we don’t deserve to go up finishing a point over Falkirk, who had a full strength side almost all season.

[JagsCG]

3 minutes ago, RaithRover123 said:

Our excuse for not being 20 points clear is that our star player and goal scorer was injured 95% of the season, so it can’t be argued that we don’t deserve to go up finishing a point over Falkirk, who had a full strength side almost all season.

Not sure that can quite be your only excuse, but I don’t know enough about Raith this season to agree or disagree with you, you are of course entitled to your view, and I also haven’t once said Raith shouldn’t be promoted, that was implied by the poster I was replying to, not me. 

 

[R.R.FC]

Ross Matthews will probably have to avoid Twitter for a wee while if our promotion is reversed...

[RaithRover123]

8 minutes ago, JagsCG said:

Not sure that can quite be your only excuse, but I don’t know enough about Raith this season to agree or disagree with you, you are of course entitled to your view, and I also haven’t once said Raith shouldn’t be promoted, that was implied by the poster I was replying to, not me. 

 

Personally I think thistle should be compensated fairly, but herts can f**k off after the shambles of a reconstruction plan they put forward 

[kev23]

If no one deserves to go down with a quarter of the games to be played then no one deserves to up either - least of all a team that were just one point clear at the top of the table when virus halted play. So if you want to swap places with that Possil rabble in the spirit of 'fairness' right now then you should indicate that to your club and they can take it up with the SPFL.
You don't get to pick only the nice competition rules to apply and arbitrarily expand the leagues to keep your promotion though. 

I didn't say we deserved to go up. I said I thought that model would be the most fair. Thanks for playing.

[Skyline Drifter]

11 hours ago, Brashy's Boots said:

Change the subject completely. Did someone say half the Tunnocks prize money had been paid out to each club? Do we know if there is any plan to play the final? I bought 2 tickets and 2 places on one of the buses but haven't heard what the club is doing.

We know the SPFL have said the intention at the moment is to play the final. Beyond that nobody knows anything so clearly the club cant tell you anything. Presumably you will be entitled to a refund if you cant make the rearrange date.

10 hours ago, JagsCG said:

Quite, I know a lot of people now seem to be SPFL defenders. But regardless of whether you are a Raith/Dundee United fan, Thistle/Hearts or anyone else, the SPFL have been shocking throughout this whole episode, in my opinion. And the silence for months from Ian Maxwell and the SFA, told its own story too. 
 

I don’t blame RR or United for making sure they are promoted (by funding their own legal challenge) if it was Thistle, many a Jag would be demanding we do the same, the exact same that most fans of Dundee U and RR would be demanding to fight relegation, or at least get compensation, if they were in Thistle’s position. 
 

On the last point about Hearts, I have no idea about their finances but you make a very good point regarding Neilson and Craig Gordon, they certainly don’t seem to be a club in a financial crisis, not that they ever did claim to be. Thistle however, I imagine, might not be in a financial crisis, but certainly will have taken quite a hit, as of course a lot of clubs have as well. 

I have no idea genuinely what you think the SPFL should have done here? They did the best they could. Everybody sane accepts finishing the leagues wasnt possible. However they then call it isnt fair on some teams. Those teams think the SPFL are a disgrace but they were absolutely between a rock and a hard place and did the best they could. I bet that privately the officials wish Hamilton and QoS or Alloa had been bottom as they would have heard a lot less about it and wouldnt be in Court or arbitration probably but it is what it is and they got on with it. 

It has absolutely nothing to do with the SFA either so Lord knows why you want to blame Ian Maxwell. You may as well blame Nicola Sturgeon while you are at it. She has had nothing to say about it either!

You seem to be missing the point whilst "not blaming" Dundee Utd and Raith for funding a legal defence that they were left with pretty much no option when YOUR club and their Gorgie puppetmasters specifically cited them in Court, a pretty snake like tactic. 

And Hearts absolutely DID claim to be in financial crisis. Hence why they asked their players and staff to take 25% wage cuts. Right before triggering a six figure release clause on a new manager, signing an intermational keeper who turned down a contract from Celtic and funding an expensive legal challenge against their own League!

52 minutes ago, RaithRover123 said:

As for compensation surely they could get compensated for the amount of losses Falkirk made this season from the drop, similarly with hearts getting the amount covered that Dundee lost. 
But another point is that it was likely they were going down anyway so shouldn’t get compensated the full amount anyway, if anything at all in hearts case as they put forward an awful reconstruction plan that would only benefit themselves in the long run.

Either relegation is fair in the circumstances or it isnt. I dont see why compensation is a factor at all, and as previously noted the sums claimed are laughable anyway, certainly in Thistle's case. 

Hearts will already get a parachute payment for relegation of course. Just like every other relegated side.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[JagsCG]

7 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

I have no idea genuinely what you think the SPFL should have done here? They did the best they could. Everybody sane accepts finishing the leagues wasnt possible. However they then call it isnt fair on some teams. Those teams think the SPFL are a disgrace but they were absolutely between a rock and a hard place and did the best they could. I bet that privately the officials wish Hamilton and QoS or Alloa had been bottom as they would have heard a lot less about it and wouldnt be in Court or arbitration probably but it is what it is and they got on with it. 

It has absolutely nothing to do with the SFA either so Lord knows why you want to blame Ian Maxwell. You may as well blame Nicola Sturgeon while you are at it. She has had nothing to say about it either!

You seem to be missing the point whilst "not blaming" Dundee Utd and Raith for funding a legal defence that they were left with pretty much no option when YOUR club and their Gorgie puppetmasters specifically cited them in Court, a pretty snake like tactic. 

The leagues couldn't be finished, I never argued otherwise. We were in the mist of a global pandemic, there was suggestions, league's wouldn't even begin until 2021, of course they couldn't be finished, in the sense of playing them out now, who is arguing the contrary? Not Hearts or Thistle. I disagree that the SPFL did the best they could, there's several things that could have been handled so much better, to just name a few examples, the payments to clubs that were sent out following the "Good Friday Vote", seen as the string attached to releasing them was ending the leagues, they could have attached a string of reconstruction, so no club would be worse off (I understand that would have been difficult for several reasons, one being no one can decide what reconstruction they want, if any)  that's my own view on that, many I'm sure disagree, fair enough. Also within the Good Friday Vote, they released the voting stats, before all teams had voted, meaning one club held substantial power, and were in a situation that they 1. didn't ask to be put in, 2. didn't deserve to be put in, and John Nelms would tell you that himself. If you genuinely believe the SPFL handled that vote properly, and the best they could then I'm staggered beyond belief. Hamilton would also apparently be fighting relegation if they were in Hearts and/or Thistle's exact situation as stated by their manager, so that argument that other businesses, worth remembering that's what these clubs are,  would simply accept it, with no moan or just "take their medicine" as Roy MacGregor would so eloquently put it, just will not wash in my opinion.  I said the silence from the SFA and Ian Maxwell told a story, I didn't say I blamed them for anything, what is there in this instance to blame them on?, my point was the SFA, are the Football Association of this country, and when a club was threatening to take the organisation of the SPFL (which is made up for 42 clubs of which the SFA also represent) to court, they never uttered a word, when all the chaos, with a so-called "missing vote" with Dundee, was going on, they never uttered a word, as the Footballing Authority of this country, that is poor I'd say. To the final point made; I miss no point like claimed, I'll say again I do not blame Dundee United for funding a legal challenge to defend their promotion, clearly they don't trust the SPFL to defend them correctly, which is fair, I wouldn't trust them either. Not really a snake-like tactic, when it was factual, Hearts/Thistle case looks be largely made up of claiming Dundee's second vote was illegitimate, which would mean the call to end the leagues, was illegitimate, which also further means no promotions or relegations stood, that is why they named the promoted clubs, as well as naming the relegated clubs. Had John Nelms, actually just picked a decision Yes or No, it didn't matter, and stuck with it, Hearts/Thistle  wouldn't even have a case, so if they win, it's well done John Nelms for screwing that one up, although a win is unlikely I'd say. As I reiterated, this is all my own view, and quite frankly we are going over very old and boring ground. 

[JagsCG]

25 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

And Hearts absolutely DID claim to be in financial crisis. Hence why they asked their players and staff to take 25% wage cuts. Right before triggering a six figure release clause on a new manager, signing an intermational keeper who turned down a contract from Celtic and funding an expensive legal challenge against their own League!

I completely forgot about their wage cuts, I'll accept your point on that, which actually proves my original point, that they don't seem to have a financial problem at present time, for the reasons that have been stated by both of us. 

[JagsCG]

40 minutes ago, RaithRover123 said:

Personally I think thistle should be compensated fairly, but herts can f**k off after the shambles of a reconstruction plan they put forward 

That seems to be the general opinion among most people, to be honest I think. 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, JagsCG said:

When you say no one? Do you include Dundee United and Cove who were streets ahead in their leagues? Because they do deserve to go up, I think everyone would probably accept it, even the clubs in the arbitration case know they deserve it, I’d imagine. 

Had your partners in victimhood Hearts and Stranraer accepted the streets ahead principle and took their relegations - the rest of their leagues having been streets ahead of their utter dung outfits all season - then you'd perhaps have a point here. But they didn't, so you don't.  

You cannot legitimately argue that it's completely unjust and unfair to relegate teams when they still had enough points on the table to stay up, while at the same time denying Inverness, Edinburgh City etc. a claim to the title and promotion despite being in the exact same position. And if you want to just hand out free promotions like sweeties instead then you'd have to promote fully half of League One, rather than the nonsense 'just let Falkirk in as well' nonsense argument, which was rightly filed in the bin.

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by vikingTON

[RaithRover123]

30 minutes ago, JagsCG said:

That seems to be the general opinion among most people, to be honest I think. 

Only issue is that you’ll probably get treated the same as hearts whether that’s going to benefit partick or not will remain to be seen 

[Skyline Drifter]

41 minutes ago, JagsCG said:

The leagues couldn't be finished, I never argued otherwise. We were in the mist of a global pandemic, there was suggestions, league's wouldn't even begin until 2021, of course they couldn't be finished, in the sense of playing them out now, who is arguing the contrary? Not Hearts or Thistle. I disagree that the SPFL did the best they could, there's several things that could have been handled so much better, to just name a few examples, the payments to clubs that were sent out following the "Good Friday Vote", seen as the string attached to releasing them was ending the leagues, they could have attached a string of reconstruction, so no club would be worse off (I understand that would have been difficult for several reasons, one being no one can decide what reconstruction they want, if any)  that's my own view on that, many I'm sure disagree, fair enough. Also within the Good Friday Vote, they released the voting stats, before all teams had voted, meaning one club held substantial power, and were in a situation that they 1. didn't ask to be put in, 2. didn't deserve to be put in, and John Nelms would tell you that himself. If you genuinely believe the SPFL handled that vote properly, and the best they could then I'm staggered beyond belief. Hamilton would also apparently be fighting relegation if they were in Hearts and/or Thistle's exact situation as stated by their manager, so that argument that other businesses, worth remembering that's what these clubs are,  would simply accept it, with no moan or just "take their medicine" as Roy MacGregor would so eloquently put it, just will not wash in my opinion.  I said the silence from the SFA and Ian Maxwell told a story, I didn't say I blamed them for anything, what is there in this instance to blame them on?, my point was the SFA, are the Football Association of this country, and when a club was threatening to take the organisation of the SPFL (which is made up for 42 clubs of which the SFA also represent) to court, they never uttered a word, when all the chaos, with a so-called "missing vote" with Dundee, was going on, they never uttered a word, as the Footballing Authority of this country, that is poor I'd say. To the final point made; I miss no point like claimed, I'll say again I do not blame Dundee United for funding a legal challenge to defend their promotion, clearly they don't trust the SPFL to defend them correctly, which is fair, I wouldn't trust them either. Not really a snake-like tactic, when it was factual, Hearts/Thistle case looks be largely made up of claiming Dundee's second vote was illegitimate, which would mean the call to end the leagues, was illegitimate, which also further means no promotions or relegations stood, that is why they named the promoted clubs, as well as naming the relegated clubs. Had John Nelms, actually just picked a decision Yes or No, it didn't matter, and stuck with it, Hearts/Thistle  wouldn't even have a case, so if they win, it's well done John Nelms for screwing that one up, although a win is unlikely I'd say. As I reiterated, this is all my own view, and quite frankly we are going over very old and boring ground. 

I didnt say you did say Leagues could be finished, but some roasters on the Hearts thread are still saying it should have been. Given we agree it couldnt then you have fundamentally two choices here, call it or void it. One relegates clubs before mathmatically certain, one denies promotion to clubs who played more than 75% of the season. Neither is 'fair' to everyone. I have sympathy with both approaches to be honest if it was a straight choice. My initial thoughts in March were to void it in the same way an abandoned game at 80 mins starts again. But it quickly became clear it wasnt an even playing field and voiding was commercially impossible. Broadcasters and sponsors would be entitled to their money back and the new tv deal would be either delayed 12 months or scrapped altogether. None of the clubs could afford that so you have to call it. And at over 75% played that is probably fairer anyway, but thats an aside.

The rest is a red herring. You can moan about the league vote if you want but they were hamstrung by corporate law not being compatible with times of lockdown. The Dundee incident could absolutely have been handled better though for me blame for it lies squarely with Dundee, not the League. Its still fundamentally irrelevant though.

I never said Hamilton would simply accept it. Or Alloa or us for that matter but the facts are those clubs are all much smaller than Hearts and Thistle. We both know the media would have given them far less of a platform and they probably wouldnt have the resources to take legal action. It would inevitably have been less of a headache for the League. Any suggestion otherwise is naive.

You still appear confused about the SFA's role here. The internal workings and decisions of the SPFL are nothing to do with them. They were silent because its none of their business.

Hearts and Thistle's complaint is with the League, rightly or wrongly. And with Dundee if you like though thats still a red herring. Its not with Dundee United, Raith or Cove Rangers. Yet they individually cited those clubs, forcing them in reality to incur legal costs over something not of their doing. Oh I'm sure there are legal, QC costly, reasons why they will claim that was necessary but its still snakey. Hearts and Thistle CHOSE to take legal action, the three champion clubs did not.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[JagsCG]

2 minutes ago, virginton said:

Had your partners in victimhood Hearts and Stranraer accepted the streets ahead principle and took their relegations - the rest of their leagues having been streets ahead of their utter dung outfits all season - then you'd perhaps have a point here. But they didn't, so you don't.  

You cannot legitimately argue that it's completely unjust and unfair to relegate teams when they still had enough points on the table to stay up, while at the same time denying Inverness, Edinburgh City etc. a claim to the title and promotion despite being in the exact same position. And if you want to just hand out free promotions like sweeties instead then you'd have to promote fully half of League One, rather than the nonsense 'just let Falkirk in as well' nonsense argument, which was rightly filed in the bin.

 

Thank you for answering my question...

[JagsCG]

2 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I didnt say you did say Leagues could be finished, but some roasters on the Hearts thread are still saying it should have been. Given we agree it coyldnt then you have fundamentally two choices here, call it or void it. One relegates clubs before mathmatically certain, one denies promotion to clubs who played more than 75% of the season. Neither is 'fair' to everyone. I have sympathy with both approaches to be honest if it was a straight choice. My initial thoughts in March were to void it in the same way an abandoned game at 80 mins starts again. But it quickly became clear it wasnt an even playing field and voiding was commercially impossible. Broadcasters and sponsors would be entitled to their money back and the new tv deal would be either delayed 12 months or scrapped altogether. None of the clubs could afford that so you have to call it. And at over 75% played that is probably fairer anyway, but thats an aside.

The rest is a red herring. You can moan about the league vote if you want but they were hamstrung by corporate law not being compatible with times of lockdown. The Dundee incident could abdolutely have been handled better though for me blame for it lies sauarely with Dundee, not the League. Its dtill fundamentally irrelevant though.

I never said Hamilton would simply accept it. Or Alloa or us for that matter but the facts are those clubs are all much smaller than Hearts and Thistle. We both know the media would gave given them far less of a platform and they probably wouldnt have the resources to take legal action. It would inevitably have been less of a headache for the League. Any suggestion otherwise is naive.

You still appear confused about the SFA's role here. The internal workings and decisions of the SPFL are nothing to do with them. They were silent because its none of their business.

Hearts and Thustle's complaint is with the League, rightly or wrongly. And with Dundee if you like though thats still a red herring. Its not with Dundee United, Raith or Cove Rangers. Yet they individually cited those clubs, forcing them in reality to incur legal costs over something not of their doing. Oh I'm sure there are legal, QC costly, reasons why they will claim that was necessary but its still snakey. Hearts and Thistle CHOSE to take legal action, the three champion clubs did not.

I agree with you fully on the void situation, it was simply impossible to void the leagues, and most definitely would have been grossly unfair on a number of teams. You can argue about Hearts getting a lot of media attention, and I'll probably agree due to their size and reputation, but I disagree regarding Thistle's size gaining us a larger platform, if you read a lot of the stuff on this, it mostly focuses on Hearts (that may turn out to be a blessing in the end, but given Thistle's gripe is far greater, it's quite strange). I take the point regarding the SFA on board, however, I still believe they should have made it their business, especially since the SPFL were making such a mess of it, but we can leave that one there, because I guess that's a long shot of a view, and probably not one that stands much thought given what you are saying regarding their role. I agree again, the Dundee incident could have been handled a lot better, albeit from both sides in my opinion. Hearts and Thistle's complaint very much is with the league, but they still have to mention the promoted clubs, due to that being part of their case, Hearts and Thistle did choose to take legal action but so did the other 3 clubs, all clubs CHOSE to, of course they did, or else they wouldn't be doing it. Although Jags and Jambo fans will tell me that we were "forced" and yes there is merit in that, there certainly was threats regarding it from a Hearts perspective, and fans of the promoted trio will tell me they were "forced", I firmly believe all clubs CHOSE to do it, (I suspect we'll never agree on that point), and actually the SPFL were encouraging clubs to get behind court action not long ago as well. As I already said, I have no problem with any clubs going legal, if any club feels they have been wronged (whether I agree or not), they have every right to speak out about it, and take the necessary action (whether I agree or not), that applies to Hearts/Thistle, it also applies to Dundee Utd/Raith, and any other club that have an issue, they have backing from me to be allowed to say so. On a final complimentary point, at least you've been articulate and provided some detailed arguments, some I agree with, some I don't, all I certainly think are worth merit, rather than just being another one of the "Get Doon" lot, I respect that. 

[Jilted John]

Had your partners in victimhood Hearts and Stranraer accepted the streets ahead principle and took their relegations - the rest of their leagues having been streets ahead of their utter dung outfits all season - then you'd perhaps have a point here. But they didn't, so you don't.  
You cannot legitimately argue that it's completely unjust and unfair to relegate teams when they still had enough points on the table to stay up, while at the same time denying Inverness, Edinburgh City etc. a claim to the title and promotion despite being in the exact same position. And if you want to just hand out free promotions like sweeties instead then you'd have to promote fully half of League One, rather than the nonsense 'just let Falkirk in as well' nonsense argument, which was rightly filed in the bin.
 

I don’t completely disagree with your point however, if it’s unfair to punish teams who ‘finished’ bottom by relegating them, surely it’s also unfair not to promote teams who ‘finished’ top.

81% of teams in the country voted in favour of the proposal, yet it’s ourselves, United and Cove that are being portrayed as some sort of pariah.

[JagsCG]

22 minutes ago, RaithRover123 said:

Only issue is that you’ll probably get treated the same as hearts whether that’s going to benefit partick or not will remain to be seen 

Yeah, that's a fair point 

[Ro Sham Bo]

I don't think the Rovers thread has had so many fans of other clubs commenting since the day we played Ryan Stevenson in goals.

[buchan30]

I think it’s fair to say hearts and partick were going down anyway. 
Hearts 4 wins in 30.
Partick didn’t have a win this year but are heavy moaning about a game in hand they’d have probably lost anyway.

Between all 3 clubs, they won 10 from 90 games.