Quick Question Thread

[welshbairn]

Elon Musk claiming yet again that fully autonomous cars will be available in a matter of months. If they reduce traffic fatalities and injuries by 90% compared to human drivers, but once in a while pile into a bunch of nuns leading primary school children across the road, would you allow them without a human driver being alert and ready to take over at all times? My feeling is that it's impossible to stay alert watching the road if the likelihood is you'll never have to intervene. I'm too nervous even to switch on cruise control, far less lane switching because I'm worried I'll stop concentrating properly. No idea what the answer is, but I doubt autonomous cars will ever be able to react correctly to every possible situation, especially where there's no obvious correct decision, like driving a minibus full of passengers with a lorry tailgating you and somebody jumps out on the road in front of you. 

[parsforlife]

34 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Elon Musk claiming yet again that fully autonomous cars will be available in a matter of months. If they reduce traffic fatalities and injuries by 90% compared to human drivers, but once in a while pile into a bunch of nuns leading primary school children across the road, would you allow them without a human driver being alert and ready to take over at all times? My feeling is that it's impossible to stay alert watching the road if the likelihood is you'll never have to intervene. I'm too nervous even to switch on cruise control, far less lane switching because I'm worried I'll stop concentrating properly. No idea what the answer is, but I doubt autonomous cars will ever be able to react correctly to every possible situation, especially where there's no obvious correct decision, like driving a minibus full of passengers with a lorry tailgating you and somebody jumps out on the road in front of you. 

IIRC these company's want regulation to remove the need for human driver,  or at least give them minimal control(i.e. no steering wheel)   Their studies have shown given the chance to intervene, your standard driver is significantly more likely to make an unsafe intervention than make one that prevents an accident.

Your situation is an interesting ethical situation and is effectively the trolley situation(would you pull a leaver to kill one person if failure to do so would kill 5)  There is no certain answer,  however IMO an autonomous car is more likely to willingly hurt the 'driver' than a human driver.  self preservation normally takes hold and you don't deliberately make a dangerous decision for yourself to help others.  

Edited August 4, 2021 by parsforlife

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, parsforlife said:

IIRC these company's want regulation to remove the need for human driver,  or at least give them minimal control(i.e. no steering wheel)   Their studies have shown given the chance to intervene, your standard driver is significantly more likely to make an unsafe intervention than make one that prevents an accident.

Your situation is an interesting ethical situation and is effectively the trolley situation(would you pull a leaver to kill one person if failure to do so would kill 5)  There is no certain answer,  however IMO an autonomous car is more likely to willingly hurt the 'driver' than a human driver.  self preservation normally takes hold and you don't deliberately make a dangerous decision for yourself to help others.  

I read somewhere that Teslas prioritise the safety of its "driver" over others. It's a difficult one, not sure if I'd want to be in a car that might decide to sacrifice my life to save others, however morally sound.

[Hedgecutter]

39 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Your situation is an interesting ethical situation and is effectively the trolley situation(would you pull a leaver to kill one person if failure to do so would kill 5)  There is no certain answer

Just looked that up and I struggle to see how this example they give is even up for debate (assuming you know nothing about the individuals).  Removing any bias, that lever's getting pulled.  However, if Janey Godley's one of the five, then the other four are collateral damage. They'd probably be begging me to put them out their misery anyway.

Quote

There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options:

Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main track.

Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person.

Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?

Edited August 4, 2021 by Hedgecutter

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

Just looked that up and I struggle to see how this example they give is even up for debate (assuming you know nothing about the individuals).  Removing any bias, that lever's getting pulled.  However, if Janey Godley's one of the five, then the other four are collateral damage. They'd probably be begging me to put them out their misery anyway.

Heard another one. You're standing on a bridge over the railway line next to a fat man who's sitting on the wall. Same scenario, trolley barrelling down the track towards people stuck in its path. Either do nothing or push the fat guy off the bridge on to the track, derailing the trolley. Bit more up close and personal than pulling a lever.  

[Melanius Mullarkey]

9 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Heard another one. You're standing on a bridge over the railway line next to a fat man who's sitting on the wall. Same scenario, trolley barrelling down the track towards people stuck in its path. Either do nothing or push the fat guy off the bridge on to the track, derailing the trolley. Bit more up close and personal than pulling a lever.  

Is the fat guy sweaty?

[welshbairn]

Just now, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Is the fat guy sweaty?

He is now.

[BFTD]

11 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Heard another one. You're standing on a bridge over the railway line next to a fat man who's sitting on the wall. Same scenario, trolley barrelling down the track towards people stuck in its path. Either do nothing or push the fat guy off the bridge on to the track, derailing the trolley. Bit more up close and personal than pulling a lever.  

There are posters on here who'd shove the fatty off the bridge regardless  

[WhiteRoseKillie]

There are posters on here who'd shove the fatty off the bridge regardless  [emoji38]

..after asking what school he went to, in some cases.

[DiegoDiego]

If they reduce traffic fatalities and injuries by 90% compared to human drivers, but once in a while pile into a bunch of nuns leading primary school children across the road, would you allow them without a human driver being alert and ready to take over at all times?

Yes.

^big team found.

Musk is a fud.

I think the technology is still quite far off for them though. It'll be a good few years before a robot is better at avoiding potholes than me.

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

Yes.

^big team found.

Musk is a fud.

I think the technology is still quite far off for them though. It'll be a good few years before a robot is better at avoiding potholes than me.

I wonder how many accidents are caused by humans swerving to avoid potholes.

[Shandon Par]

2 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Elon Musk claiming yet again that fully autonomous cars will be available in a matter of months. If they reduce traffic fatalities and injuries by 90% compared to human drivers, but once in a while pile into a bunch of nuns leading primary school children across the road, would you allow them without a human driver being alert and ready to take over at all times? My feeling is that it's impossible to stay alert watching the road if the likelihood is you'll never have to intervene. I'm too nervous even to switch on cruise control, far less lane switching because I'm worried I'll stop concentrating properly. No idea what the answer is, but I doubt autonomous cars will ever be able to react correctly to every possible situation, especially where there's no obvious correct decision, like driving a minibus full of passengers with a lorry tailgating you and somebody jumps out on the road in front of you. 

Autonomous cars will be great for cyclists and pedestrians. Just saunter or cycle down the middle of busy roads, cross busy dual carriageways and all the cars will stop for you. I’m looking forward to the new road rage as passengers shut in their car gesticulate and shout as you bring them to a halt just for the fun of it. 

[DiegoDiego]

I wonder how many accidents are caused by humans swerving to avoid potholes.

Seven.

[Sergeant Wilson]

3 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Heard another one. You're standing on a bridge over the railway line next to a fat man who's sitting on the wall. Same scenario, trolley barrelling down the track towards people stuck in its path. Either do nothing or push the fat guy off the bridge on to the track, derailing the trolley. Bit more up close and personal than pulling a lever.  

Can I let the trolley hit the people then shove fatty off?

[Shandon Par]

3 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Can I let the trolley hit the people then shove fatty off?

Mind you don’t put your back out. 

[Funky Nosejob]

9 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Elon Musk claiming yet again that fully autonomous cars will be available in a matter of months. If they reduce traffic fatalities and injuries by 90% compared to human drivers, but once in a while pile into a bunch of nuns leading primary school children across the road, would you allow them without a human driver being alert and ready to take over at all times? My feeling is that it's impossible to stay alert watching the road if the likelihood is you'll never have to intervene. I'm too nervous even to switch on cruise control, far less lane switching because I'm worried I'll stop concentrating properly. No idea what the answer is, but I doubt autonomous cars will ever be able to react correctly to every possible situation, especially where there's no obvious correct decision, like driving a minibus full of passengers with a lorry tailgating you and somebody jumps out on the road in front of you. 

Finally got round to listening to the latest series of Malcolm Gladwell’s Revisionist History podcasts today. In the first episode, https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/i-love-you-waymo/ , he suggests that, if all vehicles become autonomous and are programmed to protect other road users, there’s nothing to stop pedestrians simply randomly stepping out on the road or indeed walking along the road bringing all traffic to a standstill.

I’d love to know how these vehicles would behave when approaching a zebra crossing where two old ladies are standing on the pavement having a natter. You or I would be able to judge fairly accurately from their body language whether they are intending to cross the road or have just decided to chat at an inopportune location. Would an artificial intelligence be able to make such a judgement?

[BFTD]

5 minutes ago, Funky Nosejob said:

Finally got round to listening to the latest series of Malcolm Gladwell’s Revisionist History podcasts today. In the first episode, https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/i-love-you-waymo/ , he suggests that, if all vehicles become autonomous and are programmed to protect other road users, there’s nothing to stop pedestrians simply randomly stepping out on the road or indeed walking along the road bringing all traffic to a standstill.

It'll still work quite well in America. They'll probably just pass laws similar to the "stand your ground" bills, where jaywalkers will be fair game for being shot.

[DiegoDiego]

That's something I've thought about too. City centres would very quickly become pedestrian zones.

I think they'll work quite well replacing lorries on motorways, and should save lives that way simply by keeping a few more prostitutes alive, but there are some fundamental practicalities which need to be sorted before they become ubiquitous.

[Moomintroll]

22 hours ago, Shandon Par said:

Mind you don’t put your back out. 

 

[welshbairn]

2 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

That's something I've thought about too. City centres would very quickly become pedestrian zones.

I think they'll work quite well replacing lorries on motorways, and should save lives that way simply by keeping a few more prostitutes alive, but there are some fundamental practicalities which need to be sorted before they become ubiquitous.

We'll have to vote for some kind of noise for them to make, wouldn't want to be strolling along a single track road with no pavement when one comes round a bend at 90mph behind you, however many nanoseconds it takes to react.

Edited August 5, 2021 by welshbairn