ayrmad Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 If all footballing debts are being honoured it would appear that WLC and HMRC have accepted 70k-80k between them + the 5%. If the footballing debt is not honoured about double that + 5%. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 If all footballing debts are being honoured it would appear that WLC and HMRC have accepted 70k-80k between them + the 5%.If the footballing debt is not honoured about double that + 5%. How do you work that out? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 How do you work that out? Just trying to work it back from the 400k+ bond. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Just trying to work it back from the 400k+ bond. Oh right, I see. You're assuming that payments have been made to WLC and HMRC before the CVA was drawn up. The balance then went into the CVA and they'll get their p in the £ from that too? Is that even legal? I could understand a company trying to do that before going into any kind of formal admin, but can an administrator do that? I know he paid Massone, but that was in return for shares, rather than a payment towards debt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Oh right, I see. You're assuming that payments have been made to WLC and HMRC before the CVA was drawn up. The balance then went into the CVA and they'll get their p in the £ from that too?Is that even legal? I could understand a company trying to do that before going into any kind of formal admin, but can an administrator do that? I know he paid Massone, but that was in return for shares, rather than a payment towards debt. I don't know the legalities,I'm assuming that SFL rules only pertain to footballing debts within SFL or perhaps Scotland. Preferential is 20k out of 60k,so appears to be playing staff only. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Presumably, and like you Im no expert, any footballing debt has already been paid outwith the CVA. What I cant explain from that, is why there are several football clubs listed in the CVA for, what would appear to be, football debt.What are the rules regarding CVA acceptance? I seem to recall someone saying that if the creditors who are owed over a certain percentage agree then the rest have no choice. Does anyone know what that percentage is? It would be interesting to see who's actually going to decide Livys fate. WLC and HMRC, obviously, but who else? Massone? edited to add - does anyone know what time the meeting is today? And also, is there likely to be a decision at the meeting or are this just to kick off the process? The meeting is at high noon As far as I'm aware, footballing debt being paid in full is a requirement of membership of the league. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I don't know the legalities,I'm assuming that SFL rules only pertain to footballing debts within SFL or perhaps Scotland.Preferential is 20k out of 60k,so appears to be playing staff only. I was thinking more of business law than the SFL rules. Like you, I dont know either 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 The meeting is at high noon As far as I'm aware, footballing debt being paid in full is a requirement of membership of the league. I think we all know that. What us amateur detectives (cue the dick jokes) cant figure out is why there are football clubs listed in the CVA for, what would appear to be, footballing debt. I guess the definition of football debt is quite specific, but I dont know what it is. It must either be covered by the £20k preferential creditors or has been paid outwith the CVA 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I think Massone has come to cause bother! I'm tempted to wait down there & smack him one! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 The meeting is at high noon As far as I'm aware, footballing debt being paid in full is a requirement of membership of the league. I understand that but if WBA etc are included in that then surely they wouldn't also be getting xp in the £ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I think Massone has come to cause bother! I'm tempted to wait down there & smack him one! Im pretty sure he still has a say in what happens. I make it that the WLC and HMRC make up just over 48% of the debt. Massone is the next biggest creditor at 15%. I dont know what percentage is required to sign the CVA off, and I did ask the question earlier, but I doubt if its as low as the 48% that the WLC and HMRC hold. Ged Nixon makes up another 3%, so if the threshold is 50% Massone may well not be required. However, if anything over that is required, then Massone will need to play ball. Even more complicated, if the percentage required is over 70% not only does Massone have to agree but the Redundancy Payments office would have to agree to take £300 to spread around however many employees, who are actually owed a total of £60k! It might just be coincidence, but the 5 creditors above are listed separately in the summary page, with everyone else lumped under "Trade and Expense creditors" Alternatively, I could be totally misinterpreting the rules of a CVA 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) Im pretty sure he still has a say in what happens.I make it that the WLC and HMRC make up just over 48% of the debt. Massone is the next biggest creditor at 15%. I dont know what percentage is required to sign the CVA off, and I did ask the question earlier, but I doubt if its as low as the 48% that the WLC and HMRC hold. Ged Nixon makes up another 3%, so if the threshold is 50% Massone may well not be required. However, if anything over that is required, then Massone will need to play ball. Even more complicated, if the percentage required is over 70% not only does Massone have to agree but the Redundancy Payments office would have to agree to take £300 to spread around however many employees, who are actually owed a total of £60k! It might just be coincidence, but the 5 creditors above are listed separately in the summary page, with everyone else lumped under "Trade and Expense creditors" Alternatively, I could be totally misinterpreting the rules of a CVA Someone posted last week stating 75% was required. Must be someone on here who can tell us how this works. Edited September 17, 2009 by ayrmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I understand that but if WBA etc are included in that then surely they wouldn't also be getting xp in the £ All the clubs listed are members of other leagues and not the SFL. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 All the clubs listed are members of other leagues and not the SFL. Am I correct in assuming that footballing debt only refers to SFL. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Someone posted last week stating 75% was required.Must be someone on here who can tell us how this works. Yeah where is AND180Y this morning I had 70% in my head but, as I said, I couldnt really remember. If it is 75% add Kingdom Property Group and Scottish Power onto the list above - as far as I can see they are the two next biggest creditors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Might be way off here,HMRC insist on parity,could they be receiving 33 1/3% the same as preferred creditors? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Might be way off here,HMRC insist on parity,could they be receiving 33 1/3% the same as preferred creditors? Isnt the preferred creditor getting 100%? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) Isnt the preferred creditor getting 100%? £20K set aside out of £60k,might be some juggling going on. Perhaps Accrington owed another Football League club cash and as they must pay it in full HMRC asked for parity. Perhaps I've got too much time on my hands. Edited September 17, 2009 by ayrmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 £20K set aside out of £60k,might be some juggling going on. I see. My mind obviously isnt as twisted and devious as yours 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 On the Accrington situation, they owe £308,000. Initially, HMRC allowed them twelve months to pay it off, then changed their mind abruptly a couple of weeks back, and demanded payment in full within eight weeks. So, even if HMRC appear initially to be onside, there's no predicting their sudden changes of heart, as has happened with Accrington. I also believe that they own the Crown Ground. I can see them beating the rap and making the deadline, but it will be very tight. They've already had a friendly with Burnley, who are their neighbours, and fans of other local clubs are turning out to follow them in their hour of need. there were 3,500 at their last game, with Darlington, compared to a normal gate of about 1200, with reportedly fans of other small Lancashire teams- Morecambe, Bury and Rochdale- turning out in support. So, the situation is somewhat different to Livingston's even if they have the HMRC debts in common. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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