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Livingston - all the threads merged

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Take your pick. [A] a charity for severely disabled children?; the National Health Service?; [C] an organisation which looks after musicians in hardship?; or [D] the community football partnership?

You don't half hit where it hurts! :bairn:bairn:bairn

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You don't half hit where it hurts! :bairn:bairn:bairn

Apologies if I'm being slightly blunt. However it demonstrates my point. Far too many Livi fans are all happy to believe you've made a fresh start. It is a fallacy. A trail of destruction is being left, a trail worsened by the money given to Winters, new assistant, etc. Money 'taken' from the disabled children. Every penny given out in goal bonuses, signing-on fees, or on wages - is a penny taken away from the disabled children, the NHS, the pensioners, the school-children, the sick and needy.

Edited by HibeeJibee

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Apologies if I'm being slightly blunt. However it demonstrates my point. Far too many Livi fans are all happy to believe you've made a fresh start. It is a fallacy. A trail of destruction is being left, a trail worsened by the money given to Winters, new assistant, etc. Money 'taken' from the disabled children. Every penny given out in goal bonuses, signing-on fees, or on wages - is a penny taken away from the disabled children, the NHS, the pensioners, the school-children, the sick and needy.

Sadly what you say is very true. :(

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Some of the creditors would be better off with nothing if they need to continue services to the club eg the ambulances. It's screamingly obvious Livi will rack up debts again and some of them would be better to cut their losses now rather than get a pittance now and face their next debt being written off in liquidation.

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Sadly what you say is very true. :(

Yes, it is. So why are you and other more "reasonable" Livi supporters not taking the club to task over it? You don't need to ask particularly involved questions: "How can we possibly justify appointing an Assistant Manager we don't need rather than paying creditors?" and "How can we possibly break even in the 3rd division with a full-time squad?" would do for starters!

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Yes, it is. So why are you and other more "reasonable" Livi supporters not taking the club to task over it? You don't need to ask particularly involved questions: "How can we possibly justify appointing an Assistant Manager we don't need rather than paying creditors?" and "How can we possibly break even in the 3rd division with a full-time squad?" would do for starters!

I have done that. The reasons given were that the players are tied to their contracts. Regarding Robbie Winters supposedly he was offered more at Airdrie but chose to come to Livi as his brother is here & he is only contracted until December. I have not asked about the assistant manager yet as I have not had the chance to speak with anyone at the club about it yet.

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Regarding Robbie Winters supposedly he was offered more at Airdrie but chose to come to Livi as his brother is here & he is only contracted until December.

Airdrie weren't offering contracts at the time because we weren't sure what division we'd be playing in this season.

Stuart

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Just had a look at the unsecured creditors list why are Blackburn Rovers PLC due £29,000 and Shelbourne FC due £21,000, also hearts are due nearly £23,000,and middlesboro are due £13,000,WBA are due £1750 and Plymouth a £1000.

I presume these are not footballing debts but if they are then the SFL should get livi to honour them as is always the case.

I also see scottish power are on the list for ove £40,000.

Certainly makes intresting reading.

Off the top of my head the Blackburn money was due from the sell on clause for David McNamee and Middlesboro was part of the loan deal for Jason Kennedy. Shelbourne would be for sell on of Wes Hoolihan. Those were all back in the days of Pearse Flynn's ownership.

Hearts is the loan deal for Calum Elliot. I'm sure the owning club continues to pay the player's wages and the loan club reimburses them later which Livi didn't do obviously.

Not sure about the others.

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Also found this creditor

Daniele Brambilla employment tribunal is due £18330.51

I take it this lady sued livi and won but wont see very much of her win.

Daniele was the chef who, as well as being owed money for wages, actually paid for food and stuff himself so the kitchens could keep functioning.

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Off the top of my head the Blackburn money was due from the sell on clause for David McNamee and Middlesboro was part of the loan deal for Jason Kennedy. Shelbourne would be for sell on of Wes Hoolihan. Those were all back in the days of Pearse Flynn's ownership.

Hearts is the loan deal for Calum Elliot. I'm sure the owning club continues to pay the player's wages and the loan club reimburses them later which Livi didn't do obviously.

Not sure about the others.

I thought all the debts were down to Massone?

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No wonder Flynn wanted out as quick as possible.

Bet he couldnt believe his luck when massone offered to takeover.

He walks away from a club in debt and then watches as massone makes as big a mess as he had.

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I think that's the chef who left after the non-payment of wages, with the cooking utensils in the boot of his car!

...if only there was some lame pun about "cooking the books" I could make, but I can't think of one... :(

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I thought all the debts were down to Massone?

No, like my claim, a lot of them were from the Flynn era. Massone bought the club for £1 and took on the debts but then claimed he wasn't told the true level of debt.

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On the HMRC front, it may simply be a question of timing. Normally payments to HMRC fall due on specific dates. It is perfectly feasible that HMRC have merely deferred action on payment falling due to allow the Administrator/Livvy 5 time to see what can be salvaged from this train wreck. If HMRC had insisted on timely payment, everything else would have been pointless.

It looks to me as though they are regarded as in the same category as every other non-football creditor. If so, given their actions at Accrington, I cannot see how they will allow Livvy to pay £25k in respect of a £500k debt when chasing another club to the point of extinction for the whole £300k. Unless of course, Accrington own their own ground and that can be sold off to pay the debt whereas there is no point in pursuing that with Livvy because they have nothing of note to liquidate. The only reason then to refuse the £25k (being hard-nosed about it) is to prevent this happening again. But that would be challenged by the Livvy 5 because they are a group with a track record of generally not going into admin - by whatever means.

If they intend to try and recoup the £500k, Livvy would appear to be humped.

And here's a thing. If the council sell the ground to the Livvy 5, they then have a tangible asset which can be used against them should they go down this slippery slope again. They can then say to HMRC that this won't happen again and if it does, you'll get your wedge through liquidation. The council will still have senior football in West Lothian but will be rid of the alleged £200k potential maintenance costs and they'll have profited from the arrival of the Livvy 5 (spun as good news for the taxpayer). Of course the council would have to insist on some clause or other that the land can only be used for football or whatever. But that would not matter if new owners tried and failed to make the club self sufficient. If the whole thing collapses again, the land is sold on to pay creditors. Then houses get built and the spin is that senior football was never sustainable in Livingston but at least someone tried and nobody got ripped off as badly as last time.

A bit simplistic but you get the drift!

Edited by HTG

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I'm led to believe Massone is back in the country, ready to make an appearance at the CVA meeting tomorrow at the stadium (Almondvale Suite). Perhaps one final hurrah?

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The Hearts debt must be for Callum Elliot. :o

I thought I was near the end of the list but realised it's alphabetical & I was only at D! <_<

It's sickening. :(

That would make it a footballing debt....................................

.......

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No, like my claim, a lot of them were from the Flynn era. Massone bought the club for £1 and took on the debts but then claimed he wasn't told the true level of debt.

I believe him on that one.

Although it won't help those involved at the moment why don't people offering services take cash upfront or on delivery.

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