Livingston - all the threads merged

[LIVIFOREVER]

Maybe, but thats a whole other argument.

As I said, Im not really sure what relevance you think it has to Livy.

Are you saying that a club that has already gone into admin twice needs rules in place to stop it happening a third time?

It has no particular relevance to Livi, that's prob where the misunderstanding came where everyone was having a pop at me. Christ i can't even remember how i got started on this and i can't be arsed going back to see. It would have saved us from the way our previous owners ran the club though.

Anyway i still think it would be a good rule to bring in, as well as saving some clubs from financial suicide it would create a more level playing field, Platini was the first to come out with this, maybe his motives weren't just for the good of the game as he hates England and their EPL is the one running away with things just now because their big teams operate in this manner, but i think he's right about it.

Edited September 16, 2009 by LIVIFOREVER

[Dink]

The rule was on not spending more than a certain pecent of what the club made on players/wages though.

Have you not used Liverpool as an example in one of your earlier posts? As far as I'm aware their debt has pretty much nothing to do with player purchases and wages but with the way that the takeover by Gillette and Hicks was structured. Fair enough if I got the wrong end of the stick but your posts haven't exactly made your position clear - mind you I'm full of the cold and posting coherently is challenge enough, it may be that making sense of other people's posts is just one step too far.

[Homer Thompson]

It has no particular relevance to Livi, that's prob where the misunderstanding came where everyone was having a pop at me. Christ i can't even remember how i got started on this and i can't be arsed going back to see. It would have saved us from the way our previous owners ran the club though.

Anyway i still think it would be a good rule to bring in, as well as saving some clubs from financial suicide it would create a more level playing field, Platini was the first to come out with this, maybe his motives weren't just for the good of the game as he hates England and their EPL is the one running away with things just now because their big teams operate in this manner, but i think he's right about it.

Fair enough. It did come across as though you were trying to justify Livys position by using other clubs as an example. If that wasnt the case, then apologies for any "pops"

Im not convinced its a good idea, though. Im not sure it would create a level playing field, as the income of the big clubs is significantly more than the rest - take the big 4 in the ELP, or the OF, for example. To me, it would just increase the gap between the rich clubs and the rest.

I know some sports in the states have salary caps, but I dont believe it has done much to create a level playing field.

Have you not used Liverpool as an example in one of your earlier posts? As far as I'm aware their debt has pretty much nothing to do with player purchases and wages but with the way that the takeover by Gillette and Hicks was structured. Fair enough if I got the wrong end of the stick but your posts haven't exactly made your position clear - mind you I'm full of the cold and posting coherently is challenge enough, it may be that making sense of other people's posts is just one step too far.

It was me that originally brought up Liverpool. I think you're right about how the debt came about though, which makes the whole issue of salary caps even more confusing

[MCL]

Don't let folks use you to tell lies for them!!

Orco is the new David Hastie :lol:

[Homer Thompson]

Don't let folks use you to tell lies for them!!

Correct me if Im wrong, but is it not now impossible for Livy to settle any debtors that are named on the CVA proposal outwith any agreed CVA?

In other words, if St Johns are listed as a creditor, Livy cannot pay them 100% of the debt without prejudicing the rest of the CVA.

Or am I wrong?

[AND180Y]

Correct me if Im wrong, but is it not now impossible for Livy to settle any debtors that are named on the CVA proposal outwith any agreed CVA?

In other words, if St Johns are listed as a creditor, Livy cannot pay them 100% of the debt without prejudicing the rest of the CVA.

Or am I wrong?

You are correct.

Also at this moment in time Livi cannot pay any debts pre-admin as they are frozen by the courts pending a cva.

So his source is a liar.

[Guest]

I made a point of asking about the charity and was told that they have been paid.

That would be a major issue. McGruther has formally listed them in the CVA document. A key part of administration is that the playing field is levelled for all creditors. If Mr Administrator has elected to pay one creditor 100%, and is not prepared to match that for all other creditors on that CVA document, he is in breach of the rules that govern administration. So if they have told you that, and it's true, McGruther will have some explaining to do. If St John's are actually part of the CVA proposal creditors meeting tomorrow, then someone has lied to you. Satisfy yourself as to which is the most likely, and which is the easy answer. LFC have a history of lying about payments to creditors, that I do know. If St John's have been paid, then where did the money come from? Other creditors will want to know why they weren't offered the same deal. By the way, to settle with st john's would have cost you every penny of the cash raised at the gate last Saturday. There is absolutely no way you are paying St Johns, hiring assistant managers and running a full time squad (even on minimum wage) on the money coming into the club.

[The Old Northerner]

You are correct.

Also at this moment in time Livi cannot pay any debts pre-admin as they are frozen by the courts pending a cva.

So his source is a liar.

It's perfectly possible that the St Andrews (not St Johns ) boys are now being paid their dues. So 'they have been paid' may be true providing you choose the correct timescale

[Guest]

Orco is the new David Hastie :lol:

Speaking of which, is that boy ok? Massone and Franchi set that lad up for one hell of a rough time.

[Guest]

It's perfectly possible that the St Andrews (not St Johns ) boys are now being paid their dues. So 'they have been paid' may be true providing you choose the correct timescale

I stand corrected. It is of course, St Andrews........and you are right. They will have been paid for their two stints this season. However, Livvy will stand by the offer of 5p in the pound to a charity. Of that, I'm fairly certain.

This is special. I mean, is there a flat earth society at work in West lothian? despite all that has gone before, despite all that is going on now, you get this....................

Originally Posted by LIVIFOREVER View Post

One things for sure, at under 1,000 home fans and 300 of them having purchased ST's pre Livi5 so income was lost, there's no way we're meeting the Livi5's income matching expenditure promise.

Other Person:

How do you know that? I wouldn't listen or read too much into what other people say at this moment in time, sponsorship has been going well, hospitality was busy on Saturday, businesses ARE coming back and supporting Livi, this is a fact.

Money has to come from other places than the normal matchday support, it's the same for every club.

As for the Winters signing, he could be on £200 per week as far as we know, could be on a good win bonus, I wouldn't read too much into his signing either.

Reply With Quote

Edited September 16, 2009 by Guest

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Speaking of which, is that boy ok? Massone and Franchi set that lad up for one hell of a rough time.

He is slowly but surely putting back the fragments of his life now.

I would still enjoy throttling the raging lunatic who used him in the first place though. If I ever clap eyes on him again I will smack him one for that!

[vikingTON]

Partly agree, but SFL have to take some blame for that, surely you agree on that point at least?

No. We've been through this. Livi received a just punishment for failing to pay debts and requiring a CVA (again) - now had you not flailed like little girls and tried two appeals then you might have focused on restructuring the squad.

Other Person:

How do you know that? I wouldn't listen or read too much into what other people say at this moment in time, sponsorship has been going well, hospitality was busy on Saturday, businesses ARE coming back and supporting Livi, this is a fact.

Money has to come from other places than the normal matchday support, it's the same for every club.

As for the Winters signing, he could be on £200 per week as far as we know, could be on a good win bonus, I wouldn't read too much into his signing either.

Reply With Quote

1. Livingston couldn't break even with First Division gate reciepts, match sponsorship and hospitality.

2. Morton ran up a significant loss in the Third Division, with our parent company sponsoring everything in sight to pump money into the club. It is simply impossible to run full-time and break-even at Third Division level. Impossible.

Edited September 16, 2009 by vikingTON

[djn]

I do think the current regime will make the right decisions for Livi

As for the charity they were there on Saturday you just don't keep attending if you don't keep attending,

Comedy gold, son

Partly agree, but SFL have to take some blame for that, surely you agree on that point at least?

Aye, the SFL made you sign Robbie Winters, didn't they

I bet he's getting more than five pence in the pound

the experience of supporting a team that's went into admin twice gives me as a football fan an added perspective,

Berwick were in Administration about seventen years ago, I remember it well - kicked out of our own ground, unpaid staff etc etc. Caused a lot of troubles, with local businessmen being given a pittance in the pound, caused many problems. But Robbie Winters and Robbie Wilson mean I find it hard to sympathise with Livi

Are you saying that a club that has already gone into admin twice needs rules in place to stop it happening a third time?

True. Livi are like the stereotypical alcoholic, blaming everyone for their past problems, and blaming people from not stopping them from making the same mistakes in the future...

Correct me if Im wrong, but is it not now impossible for Livy to settle any debtors that are named on the CVA proposal outwith any agreed CVA?

In other words, if St Johns are listed as a creditor, Livy cannot pay them 100% of the debt without prejudicing the rest of the CVA.

Or am I wrong?

That's my understanding. When we almost went bust - 1992 - we paid everyone 7.5p in the pound (figure could be wrong, was a long time ago) - regardless of the size of the debt or whether they accepted it. No special arrangements could be made, no exceptions. So, is St Andrews Ambulance have had their money in full, then so have everyone else, and pigs are flying over the river Almond as I type this...

[phantoms-livi-lass]

In which case your major concern should be whether or not you'll get a smaller cheaper stadium built elsewhere when Almondvale is turned into houses, or you just disappear, and Rankine et al still make a pile of cash from turning Almondvale into houses.

It has always been on the cards, the only questions were when & who?

& what will we be left with?

[HibeeJibee]

Partly agree, but SFL have to take some blame for that, surely you agree on that point at least?

Utter tripe. It isn't the SFL's duties to emasculate their punishments in order to avoid hurting clubs. In fact if that was the case, it's not a punishment. Livi are entirely culpable for their predicament - and are already starting off another cut-and-burn process. But next time there will be no reprieve...

[AND180Y]

Right just to settle things here is the CVA Proposal

http://en.calameo.com/read/000091222d965bdf92e8f

[HibeeJibee]

Also points on Rankine are pretty obvious. He hasn't come running out of the sunset because he had an epiphany one evening, or a visitation by the Ghost of Christmas Future, and decided to run off to pour money into Livingston FC he'd never seen again. Either [1] he thinks he can one day recoup all of his initial loss and turn a profit, through footballing income; or [2] he thinks Livingston have or can get ahold of at a later date some asset which can later be sold. I know which one my money is on...

[HibeeJibee]

However nobody is concerned about anyone other than Livi on this thread, lets get back to kicking the stuffing out of us.

How many other clubs in Scotland have been in the financial sh*t as many times as Livi have? How many clubs have committed flagrant offences to such an extent that they had to be punished by the relevant governing body? Up until a couple of months ago, Livi were far and away the most dreadful financial basket-case of an outfit in the Scottish Leagues. Things haven't got that much better now.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Right just to settle things here is the CVA Proposal

http://en.calameo.com/read/000091222d965bdf92e8f

I can't bear to look! I'll allow others the honours first!

Just remembered that I'm away on holiday for the next 4 weeks! Bye!!!

[HibeeJibee]

Berwick were in Administration about seventen years ago, I remember it well - kicked out of our own ground, unpaid staff etc etc. Caused a lot of troubles, with local businessmen being given a pittance in the pound, caused many problems. But Robbie Winters and Robbie Wilson mean I find it hard to sympathise with Livi

It was when Livi - a club again entering administration; a club which was appealling a decision to which they had clearly no decent grounds; a club which had (the previous week) scratched a tie with such flagrant and diabolical dastardliness - turned up at Shielfield... with Robbie Winters and Andy McNeil both recent SPL players, listed as triallists alongside their squad of full-timers; to play a Berwick side half-drawn from the non-league and Juniors ranks... that my last sympathy for Livi drained away. Livingston are a privateer club. If they cannot reform, they should walk the plank...